Photo-acupuncture Torches

SomeoneElse

Active Member
Well, I've had experience recently at the GP, dentist, physio and having various medical scans done. None of them included a disclaimer on their bills that said their treatments "had no healing power of any kind", and I reckon they're more likely to be sued for a lot more than sellers of torches!

In fact, if those people started including disclaimers like that, I wouldn't be going to them!;)
 

Trojane

Well-known Member
In fact, if those people started including disclaimers like that, I wouldn't be going to them!;)
Yes it would be somewhat unnerving SomeoneElse! May be useful to cut the health budget!

I must admit when I see a disclaimer at the bottom of the page I immediately think "ho-hum another scam!" - in which case it doesn't do the marketer any good. I'm all for the TGA rigorously assessing anything therapeutic, but know there's time and money needed ...oodles of it. And then where would we go to get our very important placebo cures? :D
 

SMR

Well-known Member
Trojane and SomeoneElse, I guess you won't be buying a phototonic torch then! If you do your research properly, I'm sure you'll find that there are many products on the market that are accepted as aiding in some sort of treatment that also have a similar disclaimer.

SomeoneElse, as you have read the disclaimer, I take it that you have also read the statement, "While equipment for animal use in America is generally FDA exempt...".

I also take it that you have read the rest of the site as you have posted a link. I think that the science behind the phototonic torch is well explained on that site ;)

Oh, and horses don't show any response to placebo cures Trojane ;)
 

retroremedy

Well-known Member
I think the best thing to do if anyone is interested is to get Jess out for a treatment on your horse and a training session on the device!

Jess is one of the top practitioners when it comes to keeping horses in top condition for performance and for rehab after injuries! She is also a book of knowledge on all types of treatments and can give you a great overview of what would be most suitable for your horse!
 

wormwatch

Active Member
I have a carefully (and expensively) worded disclaimer on my worm egg count reports. This was on advice of a lawyer who helped me combine the legal requirements with a clear statement that makes sure people understand the strengths and limitations of the test.

The alternative would be that I would have to carry such a high level of indemnity insurance that I would never do a single worm egg count for the general public.

Not all disclaimers are on a dodgy product. A disclaimer really should just be a simple statement showing that the person selling the product has clearly explained the limitations of the product or service they are providing and the person buying it understands what they can expect from the product :)
 

TB4Me

Well-known Member
For anyone interested - there's actually some evidence that blue light is harmful - it damages mitochondrial DNA and results in free radical production (another good reason to use sunscreen with physical blockers like zinc/titanium?) but the DNA damage is mostly well repaired.
As for red light therapy, it's been proven useful in the treatment of skin disorders, and is also antibacterial, but its effects (from my quick scan of PubMed) seem to be mostly on the surface which makes sense I guess - how is light of this wavelength meant to penetrate into tissues? Would it's potential therapeutic benefits be mostly topical?
 

SomeoneElse

Active Member
Actually, the science is very interesting. In fact, scientists have only recently discovered how to increase the amount of light passing through an opaque layer by 44%, by shaping the light wave to discover "open channels" (as reported by Scientific Blogging).
 

sharlas

New Member
confused

After reading this thread Im still confused as to why i would pay $270 more for the torkington torch (when i can get the other one for $90), just for the literature - is the torch of higher quality as well??
is it more effective?
If im going to pay $360 for the torkington torch (dont get me wrong - i want the best for my horse) i would expect the charts that come with the cheaper torch AS WELL AS the additional literature for the more expensive one.
Can anyone sell me on why i would get the torkington?
 

pso

Gold Member
hehe..I asked the same thing!;)

They both have the same light...they both do the same thing...

BUT, the torkington is alot tougher...Looks like you could drop it, have a horse stand on it etc, and it would keep on going...the cheap one would prob crack if you did that to it!

The casing is better quality (think industrial strength)...and I think the literature is slightly different with each torch...

But HH could answer better I guess!:p
 

SomeoneElse

Active Member
Well, I wasn't going to revisit this topic, but since other people have done it...

I was told to read the science to understand it. Which I have now done. And boy am I impressed:

"Seven dogs "died" during the surgical procedures (i.e. cessation of heart-beat, stopped breathing, lack of corneal reflex, and blood seepage), though all dogs were able to be successfully revived using photonic therapy methods."

Though with yesterday's news that scientists have discovered fish that fluoresce in red (most fluoresce in blue or green), maybe there's something in it.
 

holistichorse

Well-known Member
After reading this thread Im still confused as to why i would pay $270 more for the torkington torch (when i can get the other one for $90), just for the literature - is the torch of higher quality as well??
is it more effective?
If im going to pay $360 for the torkington torch (dont get me wrong - i want the best for my horse) i would expect the charts that come with the cheaper torch AS WELL AS the additional literature for the more expensive one.
Can anyone sell me on why i would get the torkington?
I too asked the same thing. The major difference is the casing. The red light itself is exactly the same in both torches but the acu-light is encased in a plastic shell and the Torkington is in Industrial strength plastic with very heavy duty glass casing the diodes. I've dropped it a couple of times and it's fine!!Also they come with very different material. The aculight comes with only a CD-Rom containing a manual on how to use the torch and different charts for differrent issues. The Torkington comes with a laminated chart, a spiral bound book on using the torch and essential points and a soft cover book entitled "Simple Health Maintenance" for humans, dogs and horses which is worth about $75 on it's own!! Hope that answers your question?? The biggest thing is durability (& warranty) of the torch!!
 

Trojane

Well-known Member
Oh, and horses don't show any response to placebo cures Trojane ;)
Well I shall drop back briefly to reply to this, as McLaren's paper also says: "By using animals, there can be no placebo, hypnotic, or psychosomatic confounding effects."

This is exactly why BLIND trials are necessary. Even though the horse may not express a placebo response the human reporter is certainly not impartial. McLaren should revise his statistical methods manual.
 

TB4Me

Well-known Member
Agreed ^^ I don't like that website at all. It is presented like a scientific paper, but it hasn't been published (as far as I can see), and this McLaren guy has never published anything. So even though he cites lots of references, the way he presents his argument hasn't been peer-reviewed, which basically means he can say anything he likes.
In scientific terms, your findings/observations don't mean squat unless someone else in your field but not involved with your research has looked at your results and thinks they are reasonable.
Having said that, I think there's nothing wrong with photonic therapy and there's a fair bit of science behind it, but this guy isn't helping with his crappy pseudoscience.
As for the red fish - you can get a green fluorescent protein out of a certain jellyfish and pretty much put it into anything you like:
Here it is in a mouse

And this is what you can do if you're a real nerd and you tinker with the fluorescent gene to make it glow in other colours, you get a range of colours all expressed by different bacteria

That's right, fluoro stuff is fun :) *nerd*
 

Trojane

Well-known Member
TB4Me I agree completely! McLaren's paper is a real dogs breakfast and a discredit to whatever might be useful in there.

As for the fluoro bacteria - awesome!!! Do the red ones fix whatever the icky green ones infect? :D
 
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