Out of interest...

zoo · 03-07-2009, 03:06 PM

Very sensible Remaani its a shame there are not more people honest enough to do the right thing well done

Cheers

Sue

wawa85 · 03-07-2009, 03:17 PM

I had no idea what parrot mouth meant so looked it up. Found a useful link where they explain what it is, possible causes and recommend that any breeding from a horse with parrot mouth be carefully considered

EVDS.net.au - Articles: Parrot Mouth

I love the quote in there "In improving the breed we should always aim to breed animals with similar positives and different negatives" (Dr O.Liyou & P.Graney)

Remaani · 03-07-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoo

Very sensible Remaani its a shame there are not more people honest enough to do the right thing well done

Cheers

Sue

It boils down to - will i be able to sell foal/s if they have a parrot mouth?
If i was to breed with this filly, i haven't the room to have parrot mouthed foals sitting in the paddock coz you can't sell them.
Though in saying that, i bought a pony for my son with a problem-mouth. Though i was assured by the vet & previous owner, she'd grow out of it which going by the success in how her teeth are meeting up, that's quite possible, but that's a gamble isn't it.
At least long term leasing out to a home where she has a purpose & the "problem" isn't a problem for what's required of her - then it's a win win situation. I know where my "silly filly" is & the lessee gets a great/reliable/calm pony to keep her TB's company at the track & home.
I shouldn't of bought her (but that's a story on it's own!), but nature wise - a perfect pony although young, still perfect for what i (did) wanted for my son. It hasn't/won't work out, i don't want to show a filly in Unreg classes (what's the point!) & re my 1st comment, she won't be a broody.
Would i buy another pony, even if it's for my son/s with a defect like this? No. Simple, too much heartache & stress (again, a story on it's own).

If the OP's mare foaled a bub with a parrot mouth, i sincerly hope whom ever purchases that foal, doesn't go thru the crap i have with this filly, it's not nice, especially when you lose a friendship & $$ over it.
IMO you are better off buying a foal that hasn't a prob like this, or using a diff mare/stallion to breed with. JMO.

dayna · 03-07-2009, 03:19 PM

Sorry to sound harsh here but your mare is a TB - they are a dime a dozen. If a stallion owner wanted to breed to a TB, there are plenty of very cheap TB broodmares available to them that do not carry any of the faults that you have stated that you mare has. So why would they use your mare????

I personally would not breed from a mare that is parrot mouthed (slightly/severely makes no difference - it is still parrot mouthed so carries the gene).

Shandeh · 04-07-2009, 08:07 AM

OK - Dayna, we don't *want* another pure TB. Mum doesn't like dealing with the 'fizzy' behaviour she's learned to expect - and besides, she has had too many bad experiences with Thoroughbred youngstock. The theory is to find someone with a coldblood or a warmblood stallion who's happy to give us a shot with this option.

Remaani we are not intending to sell any horses, youngsters we breed or otherwise. Therefore some faults in the foal that don't affect its soundness, we are perfectly capable of dealing with. Mum's horses are forever horses.

wawa85 - That's exactly what we're doing - trying to find a stallion with good conformation all-round and in particular in the legs and mouth.

And a late note on the subject of vet bills - we have a wonderful vet who Mum has been going to for a very long time for horse work, and he said that because we've always paid our bills on time if we meet an emergency vet bill too big for us to pay all at once then we can pay it off over time. He's fabulous.

With that note covered, I think I'll step back and let everyone rip us to bits again about wanting to breed a proven broodmare that happens to be only slightly parrot mouthed to a stallion with a *good* mouth. I don't want to have to defend myself and Mum from people who, may I remind you, don't know us from Adam.

colibanqh · 04-07-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shandeh

OK - Dayna, we don't *want* another pure TB. Mum doesn't like dealing with the 'fizzy' behaviour she's learned to expect - and besides, she has had too many bad experiences with Thoroughbred youngstock. The theory is to find someone with a coldblood or a warmblood stallion who's happy to give us a shot with this option.
Remaani we are not intending to sell any horses, youngsters we breed or otherwise. Therefore some faults in the foal that don't affect its soundness, we are perfectly capable of dealing with. Mum's horses are forever horses.

With that note covered, I think I'll step back and let everyone rip us to bits again about wanting to breed a proven broodmare that happens to be only slightly parrot mouthed to a stallion with a *good* mouth. I don't want to have to defend myself and Mum from people who, may I remind you, don't know us from Adam.

So "theoretically speaking"

you were advertising your mare to any cold or warm blood stallions owners on this forum!

I will repeat that there is Classifieds section on Stockyard, why not advertise there for only $20

It is very affordable

all of us have to pay it when we advertise looking for something or other.

We don't need to know you from Adam, we make our assumptions based on what you've written here.
What part of a horse with a *good* mouth, that might be carrying a parrot mouth gene recessively don't you understand? The risk will ALWAYS be there in your situation.
lena

GeeJay · 04-07-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shandeh

Thanks Sil =] She's a lovely mare, although unfortunately she is a horse that needs careful selection of stallions due to a twist in a leg that we don't know if it's genetic or not (maybe an injury from racing?) and she is slightly parrot mouthed, both things that we don't want to make work.

Gosh it is hard enough to breed from well-conformed mares without breeding to obvious problems. Have you ever thought that often abnormalities skip generations so therefore your mares foal if a filly may be fine, but when or if you breed that filly that’s when the problems arise in future generations.

Not that we would put our stallion to outside mares but if we did we wouldn’t stand him to a mare with those sorts of problems I am really sorry but my advise would be not to go down that track at all.
Also would like to add if I was able to afford all the fees I still wouldn't breed from a mare with those sort faults so from me food for thought

TBPA · 04-07-2009, 01:26 PM

OK this is pretty off topic but I really don't find a parrot mouth to be that badder fault. Maybe this is because I don't have much interest in showing and a parrot mouth would not stop a horse being successful in the athletic pursits. Also a parrot mouth is not directly heritable it is not like chesnut, it seems to come randomly out of no where we have had a couple and both times neither sire or dam shows any sign of it or has ever thrown it before or again? (both times were completely unrelated foals). We also had no trouble selling these foals as it does't effect racing performace (or any performace really) at all and infact one of these horses went on to be one of the best performed horses we have bred. There are many really well performed horses out there with parrot mouths check out Amy Graham's Transatlantic his extended nose doesn't seem to stop him jumping Grand Prix.
I wouldn't however bred from a mare with a twisted leg as this is a fault which effects performance.

Bucking mad · 07-07-2009, 08:09 AM

Ok , my take on the general situation is...
To quote myself from another thread, if we are going to breed, IMO our job, like nature's, is to select the best, have only the best reproduce and eliminate animals with defects. Those not worthy of being bred should be neutered so they cannot reproduce.

A breeder must learn to evaluate a horse honestly and the pluses and minuses must be weighed and considered. It is up to the individual to decide which faults are tolerable, and which defects are unacceptable.

There is a difference between faults and defects. Faults are aesthetic conformational flaws. Generally these are aberrations that do not meet a particular breed standard, which is the guideline written by and for breeders as a goal for the improvement of the breed.
Faults can be split into 3 catagories;
1. Cosmetic. These are non-structural faults which are inherited. Colour pattern, pigmentation and eye colour are examples.
2. Structural. These faults don't conform to the breed standard and would cause failure in the show ring.
3. Environmental. These faults are acquired. They include scars and injuries.

Faults are not necessarily desirable or proper. But they are manageable. You can select and manage these faults and still breed from these animals.

A defect, on the other hand, is a genetic malformation or disease which severely affects the horses health, soundness, structure and/or temperament.
Defective animals have genetic malformations and diseases. It makes no sense to attempt to breed from a defective animal. You can't breed a horse with a fault and expect to improve the breed. Horses with a defect can make wonderful riding companions but should not be bred.

Breeding animals with defects has a high probability of failure and the discards and defects get dumped into the horse market, causing heartbreak and expense for the owners.
The problem is compounded when they are sold on and an unsuspecting new owner of one of these discards decides it is time to "have a foal". The horse with genetic defects finds its way back into the breeding program.
A defect can be masked in a healthy line. A previously healthy line can be contaminated if you breed animals with defects into the line. You can never get the defect out. The whole line is dead. IMO animals who have defects should not be bred.

If you are going to breed horses with faults, breeding to horses with opposite faults will not cancel out the fault. Genes don't work that way. You can't mix them. For example, if your mare has an undershot jaw, don't seek out a stud with an overshot jaw. The two faults will not cancel each other out. You will instead end up with a liner full of undershot and overshot jaws, with a few perfect ones thrown in for good measure.

Defects should not be messed with. far better to work with horses who are sound, healthy, and stable. You can breed a defective horse to a sound horse and the foals may appear sound, but don't be fooled. The genetic defect has not been bred out. It is still there, even though you can't see it. What has been created is a walking time bomb.

Basicaly, I think it is best to breed to individuals who are most nearly perfect and whose ancestors were sound in the area you are trying to correct. If the foal who results from your breeding is not helping improve the breed, you have a responsibility to find a new bloodline. Start fresh, with a better bloodline.

JMO and no offense meant to the OP.

Bon & Ted · 07-07-2009, 08:13 AM

Well said BM.

And TBPA I don't have a problem with parrot mouth either. There are worse conformation faults.

BUT having said that I would never breed a horse with a parrot mouth