Your ideas on how to correct faults???

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by Coliban Quarter Horse Stud, May 14, 2008.

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  1. pso

    pso Gold Member

    Can we back track to the parrot mouths?

    I know it is one of the black listed items on all breed registries...

    WHY is it considered an unsoundness?

    Sure, teeth need doing every 6 months (but hell, most performance horses are done at least that often anyhow)..

    It doesnt hinder performance...or life expectancy...so...why?

    And no, I wouldnt breed a horse with one...I'm just interested! I know vets can correct them in foals...So how do you really know if you are breeding to a 'correct' horse....

    Same for many faults I guess...If they have been modified by a vet as foals, and look normal as older horses...then should they still be bred??
     
  2. Hi all!
    PSO
    parrot mouth is a hereditory fault. You can breed a good mouth stallion to a good mouth mare and still end up with a parrot mouth foal if both parents are recessive carriers of the gene.
    A stallion won't pass a vet classification if his bite in not 100% perfect or if he has hernia.
    In a way it does affect life expectancy (if the teeth are not looked after) and in some sever cases - performance of horse. They are best ridden in hackamores or rope halters.
    Cheers, lena:)
     
  3. pso

    pso Gold Member

    I have one..I know it is considered bad...I'm just interested in why!:p

    There are no parrot mouths in the bloodline for the last 4 generations... (unless they were corrected by surgery..)

    performance isnt affected...
    Eats fine, so, cant imagine longevity will be affected...

    He is a severe case...But I cant see how it would be a problem? is there something I am missing?:p
     
  4. LeighP

    LeighP New Member

    Parrot mouths are a very interesting condition in that they are quiet difficult to manage without spending a lot of money which most horse owners just cant afford to do
    they can be treated with regular dentistry but often have bigger issues happening that being complete jaw malformations
    I have seen some doozies that actually prevent the horse from feeding well and that has its own set of problems
    often mares will not pass on this trait or will pass it on to only some of their foals
    and many breeders spend the money to realign jaws as in foal braces hahahaha

    I still think that bruceys pics were a bit mickey taking I couldnt see faults in the fuzzy images even at 3am they still looked like cartoons lol :confused:

    breeders all have different angles on what they think constitutes a fault but at the end of the day the only real measure is going to be a horses success at whatever sport it enters
    will people breed out of a winning mare that some others think has a fault yep you better believe it and will people buy progeny from that winning mare yep again and pay well for it
    how many faults really matter to a gelding anyway if it wins its owners money or can be sold on for a healthy profit and go on to be at the top of his game

    anyone who thinks science plays only a passing role in breeding hasnt checked the library books out people have been using science in breeding for hundreds of years and science is what throws out all those old wives tales and myths
    why because it uses information gathered from many studies over broad cases and does not let emotion get in the way of fact
    it tells us why some myths work and the science behind them and why others are just subjective emotions

    I am curious to as to what breed of horse brucey breeds and rides because I am confused as to why the obsession with the perfect horse :confused: the nicest conformed horse in any breed is just visual and in the performance world a horse is judged more on their ability to perform than on its aesthetics. halter horses do not much more than stand in one spot so I cant see their relevance to the discussion all horses look nice washed and brushed dont they*#)
     
  5. pso

    pso Gold Member

    Eek...now you have me worried that my boy isnt getting sufficient care... I dont spend alot on his mouth (only $250pa)...what can I do better?
     
  6. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    No Brucey but you can put some pictures up! When you do please give us a run down of pedigree and performances so far. Thanks RR

    ps. PSO Next dental appointment try Michael Field, see Equident in the classifieds on here :)
     
  7. citygirl

    citygirl Gold Member


    Rachael Stone is very good... this comes to you straight from my horses mouths **)

    I had a colt once who had an-under shot jaw at weaning..it DID get better as he got older ;)

    Cheers
    Lee
     
  8. pso

    pso Gold Member

    LOL..I use rach...no probs there!:)*
     
  9. PPH

    PPH Guest

    In the performance horse world a horse is judged on more than it's ability and there are plenty of horses out there that have less than perfect conformation and still perfom well but balance and atheleticism will make a horses job easier to do the chosen task.
    It's also matching horses to courses, for example if you have a horse that is naturally built up hill rather than with the level, flat neck desired in western pleasure classes. You can crank his head down all you like with gadgets and gimmicks but as soon as you take them off his head goes back up in the air. Nature intended it to be and it doesn't make him any less of an athlete, just not destined for life as a western pleasure horse.Better to choose a horse that is naturally built down hill making it easier to perform the job at hand.

    If you force a horse to do something that that is physicaly hard or they are not capable of doing,the horse is going to become tense and cranky which will interfere and adversly affect his athleticism and movement even more.

    Breeders, especially smaller ones, cannot take those chances of breeding of horses with major conformation faults or possible deformities and if they do they need to be prepared to deal with the consequences if it all goes belly up.
    It's a combination of performance , bloodlines, conformation etc and finding the right mix that produces quality offspring, no matter the breed or dicipline.

    The relevence of the halter horse comes from the fact that it makes up such a large percentage of the qh population. What was once a truly versitile breed has breen type bred into 4 almost completly different looking horses, yet they all come under the one label of qh.

    JMO:)
    Cheers BM:))
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2008
  10. Hi all!
    we believe that everything in a horse is "mechanical" if it does make any sence.:) Movement is- mechanichal, bone structure - "mechanical engineering":) . So if you understand how the body parts connect to each other, what angles of a body frame are most desirable to produce a certain action, how to built this mechanical structure on a solid foundation for it to last without breaking down and how to preserve a willing mind to be trainable - you'll do well in breeding a good horse. It also helps to understand where the structure is the weakest and what should be done to correct it and where this correction has to be applied.:)
    Cheers, lena
     
  11. TBPA

    TBPA Well-known Member

    I think parrot mouths are not a big problem as long as they can eat and take the bit just looks a bit ugly certainly don't stop them performing. I think one of the most important things you can do as a breeder is develop your eye. I questioned my mum recently on how it is she can pick up conformation faults so quickly and easily. She told me it is from her obsession with horses from a young age. By spending huge amounts of time staring at horses at sales and shows and even drawing them constantly means that now she can glance at a horse and say this is wrong with it or yes it is a well conformed horse. If you are going to be breeding I think you need to be able to do this otherwise how do you begin to correct faults?
     
  12. GeeJay

    GeeJay Guest

    How I see things in breeding to correct faults is far different to some, when I look at a horse the first thing that goes through my mind is will it be capable of a hard days work, has it got the shape for a comfortable ride, is it a type that needs to be fed extreme amounts to keep condition, has it got the temperament to handle hard work and keep condition.

    When I see a horse that’s very straight in the pasterns and small hoofs I know its going to be a rough ride, if it is under its knees it has a greater chance of breaking down and therefore not capable of hard work. When breeding for jumping this is the most important start to the horse, if they haven’t got that flexion it is like driving a 4 wheel drive without shock absorbers so basically when they land it is more like a thump.

    Then the shoulder and hindquarters the shoulder has to have that good natural slop from the wither, not broad as this restricts the forward movement and the ability to turn quick also, hindquarters need to be strong but not bulky as this also restricts impulsion.

    Breeding an animal with an undershot jaw or parrot mouth, with this I think well if this animal was in the wild it wouldn’t survive, so basically we are tampering with nature by fixing and breeding again.

    I do think when breeding we have to look at all angles, not just one it is like a lot of bulls now they are producing them for lean meat and forgetting to keep the most important thing, strong legs to carry these massive bodies and rumps and also forgetting that the poor cow has to give birth to these new age animals.

    So I often think Science is all very well but often is tampering too much with nature, as in the basic scheme of things nature is our biggest and often harsh cleanser.

    Also I removed all my other posts as I felt this thread was going to go nowhere but along the lines of another you me and I also started of in a silly childish way.

    I find a good way of correcting is to observe what you breed, watch how it performs under saddle and always keep an open mind when others say well you need to do this or that. I asked a few who are top in there discipline what sought of breed to you look for there answer was don’t really care what breed as long as it does the job they require in there riding profession.

    Cheers Janet:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2008
  13. Ditto Janet!:)*
    It is no point in breeding a horse that can't function and perform in a field it is bred for.:)
    Lena
     
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Brucey, you forgot the photographs of the horses you have bred. Again, please dont forget pedigree and performance results so far. Thanks RR.

    ps. Science doesnt tamper with nature....science reports on nature! :)
     
  15. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Oh yes, photos please Brucey. I'm always interested in pedigree and performance results, thanks. :)
     
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  17. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Or "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, or baffle them with bulls!t, rant like a nutter and scream like a banshee" ;) I love that saying!
     
  18. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    OOOO pick me!!! I can do Bansheee, lol!!!:p

    Sorry for the excitable outburst all, will go back to my late essay now:}

    For what it's worth (haven't sifted through ALL of the thread and missed the controversial beginning), I think you've ALL had very valid points which actually are not so far from each others**).

    Food for thought:)) ;)
     
  19. pso

    pso Gold Member

    OMG Tain...
    Are you really implying that everyone is arguing about agreeing?*#)

    Fancy that!:p
     
  20. Mod 3

    Mod 3 Moderator

    Some people never learn *sigh*.

    This thread is going nowhere fast!:(
     
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