Your ideas on how to correct faults???

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by Coliban Quarter Horse Stud, May 14, 2008.

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  1. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    Hi HR@)

    You are right about potential, though potential in a horse that is less than ideally conformed is the exception, not the rule. At the point where you are trying to breed high performance stock, you are also doing everyone a favor by keeping in mind the commercial value of the stock is also a priority. Therefore if you are purpose breeding from stock that is not well conformed for the said purpose you are then behind the eight ball re: commercial value, potential long term soundness (dep. on con. fault), and ability. All to recreate a longshot on potential..... again not the most clear explanation, lol! :p *#)

    anyone get that:confused: :D

    :)) S
  2. pso

    pso Gold Member

    Parrot mouthed horses should never be bred...IMO
    A parrot mouth will not hinder performance, accepting the bit...or anything...Sometimes they can have trouble eating short grass...

    A parrot mouth is a parrot mouth...1cm, or 5cm...It is a serious heritable fault...

    I will clarify a bit on that tho...Sometimes a foal will have a parrot mouth, despite neither parent having the gene in their bloodline... A common reason for this, is crossing broad faced horses, with narrow faced horses... (eg WBx Arab etc...)...But once you have bred it into your stock...It can be passed on...

    I guess that goes for any fault...Often they are 'made' by cross breeding...and therefore putting a fault into a previously 'clean' bloodline...

    I guess, my thoughts are...These faults shouldnt be tried to bred out (ie by using a different cross to improve a fault)...
  3. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member


    Bottom line - as a breeder, if you are willing to risk the fault, then be willing to take responsibility for the offspring - eg. geld stallions or keep it...

    Re: parrotmouth - not sure on other societies, but in order to register a breeding miniature stallion they must not have over 3mm over/under shot jaw to pass the certificate of soundness - and majority of mini's arent ridden but it is still a big no-no.
  4. citygirl

    citygirl Gold Member

    Great read everyone :)*....some really good points

    ...but no one has entertained the idea of breeding bad temperaments why ??? and yet ppls do....mostly for the halter show ring IMO

  5. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    CG - temp fault or comf fault, both faults IMO - breed to avoid both :D
  6. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    I just wouldn't even consider breeding a horse with a bad Sassy said a fault is a fault :) but some things you may consider a mare with a longish back a short coupled stallion for instance. Having a bit longer than desired back is not a really bad fault ....more a would be better if it was a bit shorter, but as a broodie a longer backed mare has a bit more room :), so not such a bad thing, so bred to the right stallion you could end up with a really nice horse......depending on other things of course.
    So to me there are faults you wouldn't even dream of breeding with .....clubbed feet, parrot mouths etc & other not so desirable qualities that aren't too bad.
    Temprement is one of those that is not negotiable :)
  7. LeighP

    LeighP New Member

    Any breeder who thinks that science plays a small role in breeding is seriously missing the point big time
    Science governs so much of breeding.
    The best correction is prevention
    Many abnormalities in foals are caused not by genetics but by other factors like mare nutrition pre and post foaling, birth trauma, weaning diet and many other factors. Including those that arrive from bad management like farrier, environment, stress, and diet into yearling stage

    Genetics plays a big role.......but those genetics are not just from looking at the mare and a stallion........they are in the whole pedigree

    Looking at just a mare 'with a long back' and hoping that by putting her to a 'shorter backed' stallion will give an in-between result is not a relied method of gaining conformation

    I think Brucey was joking in the last thread a bit like a trick question or like asking to pin the tail on the donkey hahahaha as the pics were not enough to make 100% choice anyway
    pics to analyse conformation would have to be taken in a variety of poses front back both sides as well as paddock and show shots Maybe then a better decision could be made
    and the transparencies were like trying to read an xray with sunglasses on lolol

    Conformation has little to do with winning anything horses dont win or perform well because of their conformation many win regardless of a body flaw

    bloodlines are the recipe for success environment and training the vehicle for success and heart is the reason for success

    I have seen literally hundreds of ill conformed horses who are not perfect examples of their breed, but I have seen less number of very well-bred horses with ill conformation if that make sense
  8. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    Put it this way .....if I had a long backed mare I would not put it to a long back stallion .....just about guarentee a long backed foal ...... if you have a prepotant stallion who is short barrelled then you are more likely to get a short barreled foal.
    I was using an example for clarification & I did say...this is an example of how I would choose a sire for a mare depending on characteristics
  9. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    Perfect sense LeighP**)

    I got ya KC**)

    :)) S
  10. primrosecourt

    primrosecourt Well-known Member

    It sure will help though if the horse has the best confromation possible for him to have a good chance of withstanding the often hefty gruel of everyday competition training.

    For example a horse with weak/narrow tendons and long cannons isnt as likely going to stay as sound as a horse with short strong tendon and cannons.....perhaps not a great buy for Eventers or racing.
    Long pasterns are not a great buy for Dressage although for a rgeneral rinding mount you'll get an arm-chair ride.

    Perhaps for everyday riding it may not be as essential but for top level comps you wouldnt be looking at anything with obvious faults.Why would you spend the time and $$ trainingg something that will break down when it starts to be put under abit of pressure.

    By using a long backed mare with a short backed stallion would certainly be wiser than putting a long backed stallion over her.One would hope you would get a foal with a good length bakc.i have seen this done time and time again.perhps in the Science lab of the little white coat people,they would disagree as their research suggests otherwise but on good old hands on stud experince it is a proven fact time and time again!
    Sorry but the proof is in the pudding as they say with that one**)

    Obviously you'll have exceptions as you do always in the equine world.
    My old chaser had dreadful front legs but won Champion Novice Chaser at the Cheltenham Festival and numerous other thigns aswell.he also broke down 3 times in his racing career.If it wasnt that he was owned by wealthy owners at the time one probably wouldnt have bothered.....why??...because there is usually always something better to 'waste' your money on!!He was a good horse given time but you could have got just as good a one for less $$ if you'd wanted and not gone through the heart ache of broken horses
    Last edited: May 15, 2008
  11. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    reading through this thread, its a bit like what came first - chicken or the egg?

    a well bred horse doesnt need the best bloodlines to perform well, but if it does well and breeds on, that horse will then be the good blood that others want.
  12. Hi all!
    I think that there is more to breeding than visual evaluation.
    Someone has mentioned that it isn't a rocket science. I disagree.
    If it was that simple you would see a perfect horse in every backyard.
    Breeding is a very expencive excersise. To be able to do it on a competitive level, a breeder has to outlay a lot of money to acquire a good breeding stock in the first place and do a lot of research on genetics to have a good undestanding how it works.
    You will find in general that a well conformed horse = is a well bred horse = able to perform well. Bloodlines and genetics is the key, followed by a good management.
    Cheers, lena
  13. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I don't think Brucey was joking at all, the pics she put up were by way of example of some of the faults that are out there and still been bred to/from, not to get ppl to pin the tail on the donkey and have a stab in the dark.

    If you shopping for a performance prospect or any other horse for that matter, IMO you up the odds for success by choosing one that is balanced and well conformed. Meaning that all his parts and peices fit together resulting in a picture that exudes atheleticism. For me balance and atheleticism go hand and hand.

    Wether I'm looking at a cutter, a reiner, halter, showjumper etc, athleticism will make his job a lot easier. When his job is easy then he is less likley to resent it and more likley to stay sound.

    Personally I look at the canter or lope as the tell tale gait. It tells me right away about a horses balance and athletiscm ( or lack of).

    This is a description of what i look for in a horse, conformation wise,, especially if I am to breed from it:

    *Divide the body into 3 parts, head and neck, shoulder to flank and from the flank back. They should all fit and blend together beautifuly and are of equal proportions.
    *An attractive head that flows into a long, well shaped neck that ties in high to the chest with clear definition and comes out of his withers level. This makes it easy for the horse to have that flat necked topline that makes balnce natural when moving. My rule of thumb is low neck = high back, meaning collection (requires raising and rounding the back) will be easy for him.
    *A short, strong back that ties smoothley into a strong loin and a long, strong hip.
    * The shoulder an hip should match in proper angle and leght thus giving the horse the drive from behind and the reach from his front end.
    * the hocks should be low to the ground and directly beneath the point of the hip, rather than behind ( drop an imaginary line from the point of the hip down the hock and cannon bone - it should be perfectly straight). When hind legs are this I believe that it translates into power, it is easy for the horse to reach beneath it's body and propel it's self forward or to sit down over the hind end for stops and turns.
    A horse whose hocks are camped out behind him has trouble reaching under his body making everything harder for him than one who is balanced.
    * Temperment - speaks for it's self and as I said in my earlier post if they don't shape up, they go.

    When a horse is not balanced, everything takes more effort and can even be come a struggle and when it becomes like that, even the best minded horse can become resentful over time, long term soundeness can also suffer

    And all of this comes down to studying bloodlines, performance etc etc and the genetic hereditablity of each of the characteristics we are trying to breed into our horses.:)

    Cheers BM
  14. Hi All!
    are you getting personal again?:confused: Would you like to get my thread locked as well?#(
    You seem to be very critical of us for some reason :confused:, but yourself not volonteering any suggestions on how to rectify the situation.
    At least we are doing something (not talking) to improve on faults.:)
    What have you done? How much effort and personal fortune have you invested in betterment of the breed? Tell us.
    thanks for nice comments on Tru Blu Texan!
    PS I am thrilled that our website is so informative and people study the info with interest. Thank you for that!
    Thank you Admin and Stockyards for giving us the chance to sponsor the breeding section!
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
  15. Mod 3

    Mod 3 Moderator

    Let me make this loud and clear.
    If users decide they are going to get personal in this thread not only will the thread be deleted but mods will put offenders names forward to Admin with the request of sinbinning them for a period of time.
    Mods are very tired of seeing these threads end the same way because of a few that want to bring personal gripes into it.
    Time and time again you have been asked to keep topics on track and not get personal,a lot of the time this falls on deaf ears,so that leaves us no option but to remove the continual offenders.
    Unfair you say..........try sitting the other side of the fence and reading your continuous bickering day in day out!
    BE WARNED we will not put up with it any longer!
    This is a first and FINAL warning !:mad: :mad: :mad:
  16. Hi All!
    I'll be short and sweet here.:)
    I am dead against people putting pictures of someone elses horses on public forum with an intention of pulling them apart!#( It is not the right thing to do(JMO).
    Stockyards is NOT a FUGLEY HORSE forum.
    The horses on the detremental pics DO BELONG to someone! And that person might be devastated by the comments! It is not ethical or professional!
    How would you feel if the horse you love (regadless of its faults) got picked to pieces???#(
    I have never denied that there are certain undesirable (in my opinion) faults within a breed (HYPP, Herda, small feet, refined bone) that need to be improved on but it is silly to call a multi champion horse in it its own right and a producer of champions on top of that:) - "a dodgey looking horse with HYPP!"#( I certainly haven't noticed a HYPP brand on its shoulder!:)
    Brucey, obviously you are passionate about the breed , but there is a better way of approaching the situation.
    We realise that we can't change or influence what other breeders want to breed. So we worry about our own backyard and stock we produce:)
    Cheers, Lena
    What's your name and last name, mate? You seem to address me with mine, I'd like to be able to return the priviledge.
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
  17. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Damn right there Lena **) Imagine how depressed the colour breeders would be with no sabino gene to consider or maybe the TB breeders if they never had to consider race performance.....gee imagine if it was just the best conformed horse that won the Melbourne cup...we would all be rich or horse racing wouldnt exist!!
  18. PPH

    PPH Guest

    There are more things to consider and it's a combination of bloodlines, perfomance, breeding, trait hereditability and many external factors, that go into producing a quality horse.
    There will always be acceptions to every rule but breeding for correct conformation is the basic buliding blocks for a breeder to produce quality young stock.

    JMO BM:)
  19. Brucey
    you haven't answered my question: what have you personally done to improve on the breed? How much personal fortune have you invested in the betterment of the breed?
    I know a lot of people who are very good at criticising:) .
    Usually those who talk a lot - tend to do very little.
    Please for future address to me as colibanqh:) I don't know you.
  20. PPH

    PPH Guest

    umm can we get back on topic before it gets closed. I was actually enjoying some of the different opinions and ideas that were being shared.

    please be nice.
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