Your ideas on how to correct faults???

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by Coliban Quarter Horse Stud, May 14, 2008.

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  1. Hi All!:)*
    As quarter horse breeders we are facing some serious problems within the breed (JMO) that need to be corrected. We have put a lot of thought into it and we are slowly achieving desirable(in our opinion) results.
    I would like to hear how other breeders tackle the situation within the said breed or any other breed of species (be that dogs, horses or chooks) :)*
    How you correct mental and physical faults?
    Cheers, Lena:D
  2. mirawee

    mirawee Gold Member

    It is definitely an interesting issue as you may have a horse with many strong points but one obvious fault, or you can have a horse with many less obvious faults. Should you breed with either? Personally I have never come across a horse who does not have at least some faults LOL.

    What to do to correct them - make sure you don't breed to a horse who has the same fault (and not the opposite of that particular fault hoping for something in the middle!) and make sure that the fault is not present for several generations back :)

    Case in point:

    I have a thoroughbred mare who I put in foal to an Arabian stallion as I feel she will throw a brilliant Anglo for show and performance. The mare has a brilliant front but is weak behind and slightly long through the back. That of course means that many of the Arabs out there are not suitable as they can be flat across the loins/rump. I knew of one stallion who was a riding type arabian who I had seen at a show a few years previously and had loved. Rang up and talked to the owner and told of my mares faults - turns out that this particular stallion's mother had similar faults, so since I liked what his father had produced, and seeing that his father had "fixed" the fault in another mare, I went with the father (who they also owned). I will find out in another 4 months whether it worked in my mare as well :D :D :D
  3. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Unfortunately what is crap is rather subjective and part of the problem. You have to aim for health, usefulness and longevity with what you breed.....not for colour, or because you own a mare/female anything and can, or to win a ribbon, or so you can call yourself a "breeder" or for the thousand other emotional reasons why you decide to breed anything.

    Research into the particular breed very well, seek mentoring off successful well respected breeders, gain experience and be selective in both males and females of a breed and make sure you have a market.

    Always breed to improve, never just because you can!
  4. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    I'm with GJ..... Don't breed!

    IF the horse is well conformed, good natured, with performance (or at least top potential in the case of early injury)ability, then resources willing.... by all means breed,

    if not ALL of these things just quit breeding them**)


    Just saw your post RR, lol!

    -and what she said! Do your homework.... dot all your i's....... if one of your ducks aren't in a row.... don't breed it.
    Last edited: May 14, 2008
  5. mirawee

    mirawee Gold Member

    Tain, does that mean I should not have bred to the mare I did as she has a fairly major (IMO) conformational fault? She has won in hand and under saddle and has a great temperament BUT she is not perfect conformationally.

    Actually if we only breed to the conformationally perfect there won't be any horses being produced! Plus people have different concepts of "perfect" :p
  6. mirawee

    mirawee Gold Member

    LOL Janet, it isn't a deformity just something that isn't as good as I would like - therefore a fault :)* Her first foal does not have the same issue as she has thrown to the stallion in that regards... hopefully my foal will be as good and if she (was sexed as a filly, will probably be a colt :p ) gets the best of both parents or even close to she should be very competive.

    What I don't get is people breeding to "fashionable" stallions without looking at how they will compare to their mare :( I am breeding to one such stallion this year as I plan to sell the foal but I still made sure they would suit each other :)
  7. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    I agree with you Janet..... thats why I have my stallions first 3 foals. One is now 3.5, under saddle, going you know as I took him to your station & now sold ......leaving in June for his new home on a pilbra station
    The other 2 are 2.5 & just being started.

    I did not breed the following year & took outside mares last year.
    I am now happy he throws a good performance horse that holds up under saddle & I am very happy to ride them myself :)

    I felt like he had to earn his swellings :)

    When breeding I look at what will compliment my mare. So if I had a longer backed mare I would not breed to a long back stallion, but rather a shorter coupled one an example.... hoping the get a good blend. Doesnt always happen but so far I have been happy with everything I have bred & the ones that are old enough are now out there competing & doing well ...... just like yours are :).
  8. Kymarie

    Kymarie Active Member

    Hello Same with me.

    ?? Faults as each one is different. and sometimes for breeding it takes 3 generations to breed a fault out.

    When breeding the idea is to strive to be better than its parents but sometimes it doesnt work due to past breeding. People i also breed for the show ring too. i believe that our judges have a large responsibility for this, they place bad conformation over good legs due to preparation, who is who, showmenship. For people in general who breed, breed with the winner because it must be a good horse if it has won all the ribbons right.

    Today i believe breeding a good all round horse is hard to do unless you have money to purchase a good horse to breed a good horse to start with, knowledge of what is good conformation and saying no will not touch it even though it has done all this. and a little lets try something different , I may not like the horse but he does suit my mare in her faults and maybe his.

  9. pso

    pso Gold Member

    I agree to a point...:p

    I think stallions with faults shouldnt be stallions....No horse is perfect, but the ones kept entire should be the superior of the breed...Too often that isnt the case...

    If more correct stallions were being used, then minor faults in mares may not be an issue...but only if there is a damn good reason to breed that mare!!

    I dont think breeding, just to improve on the mare, is sufficient reason to breed...

    The only reason to breed, to me, is to produce a foal that is an improvement on both the mare and the stallion....

    If you are breeding performance horses, then both parents should have performed...If you are breeding racehorses, both parents should have won...And so on... Sure this doesnt guarantee a perfect horse, but it cuts down the risk...

    I breed for performance...
    The mare must have performed
    The stallion must have performed
    Ideally, the stallion has produced performance horses already...
    I do not re breed the mare to any stallion, until she has one foal broken and working, and ridable...

    Quality not quantity**)
  10. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    Lol! Hi Mira@)

    'well conformed', as in suited WELL to what you're intended stock quality is (and I think we all want that to be high quality)....

    ie: If you want to breed a top jumping horse.... don't use weak back end's, no bone, long croup angles etc...

    sorry guys:confused: hope i've clarified rather than muddied, lol!:D :))
  11. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    Personally I think the mare is equally as important as the stallion & it is very hard to look at any horse & not think...... it could be better here or there. Not neccessarily faults but could be improved upon. So therefore when looking at a stallion, it is the same ..... not faults but could be improved upon.
    I would not put a mare to a stud if they could both have improvements in the same area. If a mare or stallion had a weakness in one area I would look for the appropriate horse that had a strength in that area...... taking into account what I am breeding for :)

    Oh & PSO ..... I agree, quality not quantity :)
  12. Tain

    Tain Well-known Member

    Yup, quality not quantity:)*

    IMO the mare is at LEAST as important as the stallion**) :))
  13. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Your right there Tain. In my opinion, the mare is equally important, if not more so as she will usually imprint the foal with her personality/temperment, though there are always exceptions to this. But in a mare I think you also have to consider how easy she is to get pregnant, how she carries it, ease of foaling and her (if you are going to continue to use her as a broodie) mothering ability. A low maintenance mare is always a bonus.

    If I happened to breed a deformed foal, I would firstly not breed the mare to that stallion again. If it happened again the mare would be culled from my band. Should a stalllion progeny start to show the same faults from different mares, then he would be gelded and sold. As for the foal, action would be relative to the severity of the deformity. Severe and i would euthanaise, mild - would not register or sell but try to find good home for with the conditions that it can't be bred.

    Faults are different again and standards can differ from one breed society to the next. What one desires and breeds for is not by another. Some faults may also be corrected or aided by skilled hoof trimming eg hoof angle/shape. The dominance of the genes that produce these faults is also a consideration. For example you may have a mare with a small leg fault, say toes out. She may produce beautiful straight legged foals from one stallion but reproduce the toe out when put to another stallion.

    As for tempement, all my animals, not just the horses, must have exceptionaly good tempers as I have young children. I will and have moved horses on due to bad tempers and personalities. They are given time to prove themselves and if they don't shape up they get shipped out!

    Just my spin on things

    Cheers BM
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2008
  14. TBPA

    TBPA Well-known Member

    It is true that you shouldn't breed from horses with glaring faults. But imagine if no ever did some amazing horses wouldn't exist. Eg Sir Tristram was reportedly mad but his blood has been hugely infuential in australian jumping.
  15. highrail2

    highrail2 Active Member

    I think breeding jumpers is somewhat more subjective than " not using weak back ends etc" I know of very influential jumping lines that have less than ideal conformation & weak behind is one of the fairly common traits ( compared to the ideal WB being shown in breed classes) this however does not stop the inherited jumping ability, I don't beleive that breeding with inheritable health or leg issues or things such as parrot mouths should be done regardless of ability .......BUT would half of the top SJ in the world exist if breeders didn't breed for jumping ability first & foremost, sometimes foregoing "correct" conformation???? I have seen many beautifully conformed horses with ZERO jumping ability:)
    Last edited: May 15, 2008
  16. Hi all!:)*
    and thank you for your imput!:)
    Very true TBPA!:)*
    Sea Bisquit had the most crooked legs,
    Queenie, the little sprint mare, record holder of her time, had a club foot and there are many many more examples.
    The trick in breeding is to try to preserve the best qualities and improve on not so perfect. (JMO)
    Cheers, Lena
  17. nimetyau

    nimetyau Well-known Member

    I have a border collie bitch that I had a litter of 4 pups. Out of them 2 had a slightly undercut jaw and 1 severely undercut that I wanted to PTS. I was worried that it was my dog that had the problem but I found anothere male and had another litter of 6 and everyone of those pups was fine. If it transpired that it was my dog I would of desexed her immediately and never had another litter from her.

    I do have a question tho in regards to undercut jaws/parot mouth in horses. I agree that if the foal from a mating has a severe undercut jaw then it wouldn't be safe to use the same mating but if the foal was a colt that was being gelded having the parot mouth wouldn't affect its performance at all? I was talking to a stock horse breeder about this and he has had cases of foals born with a slight undershot jaw which has rectified itself as the foal grows older. Is a parot mouthed horse such a serious fault that you wouldn't breed from them? I'm not talking severe but perhaps about 1cm or less.
  18. Western Fan

    Western Fan New Member

    I am sure I will get shot for this, but here goes anyway.

    I think that all breeders, horses - dogs - cats, any animals, should be licensed registered breeders and registered members of their breed association.

    and hopefully breeding purebred animals or at least partbred animals from 2 different purebred animals (hope that is understandable) eg 1st Cross QH being from a registered QH and registered TB.

    Unfortunately a lot of BYB don't have registered animals or are not registered breeders or registered members of a breed association and breed litters/animals for quick money

    And yes, lots of unregistered animals are loved and cared for better than the purebreds, but at least there are records available for health or breeding purposes for registered animals.

    Please aim low !! **)
  19. dun

    dun Active Member

    Conformation from hell

    Great topic!
    Mines a little different on this subject.
    I have a gelding that would never ever ever have been a stallion as he is a smidgen pigeon on the fronts.Turned in and then I saw his Mum at a ride and low and behold-her feet were identical.

    He is the best stockhorse on our farm and we couldnt trade the old 15yr old bugger for a straight legged horse in the world.*#) Doesnt over reach,doesnt go lame and is a big solid chesnut QH X TB. Temp is so good that the pigeons dont matter.Sometimes I wonder how that owner could have bred that mare as her conformation was soooooooo bad but at least I have a ripper **)
    Just a little story:)))
  20. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    LOL Dun .....most people do try & improve when breeding, but that said we too have a 14yr old gelding who is a tad pidgeon toed, but he is an "A" grade showjumper & has jumped WC heights successfully. His whole career has been showjumping & when we bought him he passed his vet check fine.
    So if he was a mare with the abilities he has I bet you someone would have got a foal from it ..... :)
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