White hair on Withers?

Discussion in 'Horse Management' started by Jessica0368, May 1, 2008.

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  1. Oldhack77

    Oldhack77 Gold Member

    And obviously Janet has evidence or she wouldnt say what she had.... Janet is older and wiser than most here.... I highly doubt she woke up one morning and said;

    "Today Dear Stockies I am going to make up a reason that causes white hairs....Not only am I going to make it up but I am going to tell all my fellow Stockies" Dont think so

    Scientifically proven or not...... I think people are way out of line to try and run Janet's cause down...... #(
  2. Caroline

    Caroline Well-known Member

    Funny that wild horses never get white wither patches!!:confused:

    Hot horses still need to be cooled off quickly, and hosing and scraping and then walking to promote evaporation, is the most efficient way. Repeating the hosing and scraping process 2+ times may be warranted with real hot horses to bring their body temp down.**)

    I am not able to see why hosing would create the problem of white wither hairs?? No scientific logic there I am sorry!!:D :))
  3. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Exactly, telling ppl off for hosing horses is a myth. Eventers do it all the time and it is a good thing to do. I do it myself, no probs at all. You don't have to be a genius to figure out, that you have to have a saddle fitter out, if white patches appear in the wither area. ;) :D :))
  4. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Seems also to be a myth that you can share and express your opinions and experiences with horses freely without being made to feel small.

    JMO BM
  5. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    A little hypocritical there BM...what are these last 2 posters trying to do??!! Maybe express their opinion and experiences?? :confused:
  6. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Bugger, it's contagious!!!!

    And good evening to you RR.@)

  7. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Nobody wants Janet to feel small. :D But I do like to continue to hose of horses after they have been worked. **) That's the best thing to do, if you work more than one. And no, it does not course white hair at the wither, never will. :D Hope that's ok with you BM. :))
  8. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Don't need my ok Horsetalk, it's a free world. I'm sure you will do what you think best for you and your horses.**)

  9. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Sure will BM, thanks. :D **) Just worried me , that Janet never mentioned in all her post's that it could be a prob with the saddle fitting. ;) That's all, really.**)
  10. woki

    woki New Member

    Here is some the best info on cooling I can provide to you all

    From here

    Heat and Humidity Workshop

    Cooling horses/washing horses does not cause white hairs in my experience.


    Dr Warwick Vale


    The horse is a large animal that generates considerable amounts of heat either as a result of short term, intense exercise such as show-jumping or crosscountry competition or as a result of more prolonged exercise at medium
    intensity such as dressage. The extent to which a horse is blowing (taking deep breaths at a rate of around 60-80 breaths/min) is a good indicator of how hot a horse is. Horses blow primarily due to increased body temperature.

    A horse that is hot attempts to cool itself by a combination of sweating and panting (increased rate and or depth of breathing). In a hot horse, around 85% of the heat is normally removed by sweating versus around 15% by panting. As the air temperature increases, the efficiency of sweat evaporation and natural cooling increases, but as humidity in the air increases, the efficiency of sweat evaporation decreases. At 100% relative humidity no sweat can evaporate.

    In Hong Kong the humidity is usually moderate to high in August. This means
    that if left to cool themselves by sweating horses will cool slowly and also
    experience significant fluid and electrolyte loss leading to dehydration in the
    short-term and possibly to problems associated with excessive electrolyte loss
    (e.g. tying-up or synchronous diaphragmatic flutter) in the medium to longer

    Heat related illness in horses can occur either as a result of a very high body
    temperature being reached or due to exposure to a moderate to high body temperature for a longer period of time. As in people, individual horses will have different susceptibilities to heat. The most important approach to reducing the risk of heat related illness in horses is to use a programme of acclimatisation and to use assisted cooling. In Hong Kong there will be two types of cooling facility available: cold water stations and misting fan stations. Cold water stations will consist of large volumes of chilled water (5-10 °C) made available in tanks with buckets or sprays. Misting fan stations will consist of a covered area with open sides. Down each long side will be a line of fans with nozzles fed from a reservoir of cooled water (~15 °C) spraying a mist into the covered area.

    Cooling stations
    Previous studies have shown that application of cold water to horses that are hot after exercise does not cause rapid decreases in muscle temperature, that there is no significant vasoconstriction of blood vessels in the skin that inhibits cooling and is the most effective way to reduce body (rectal temperature) (Kohn et al., 1999; Marlin et al., 1998; Williamson et al., 1995). Furthermore, cooling with cold water after exercise does not cause muscle damage (Williamson et al.,1995).

    The efficiency of this type of cooling depends on three factors: (1) the
    temperature difference between the horse’s surface and the water applied; (2) the area of body surface that is covered by the water; (3) the volume of water applied. There will be four spray stations at the main venue, two in the main venue and two at Penfold Park. Spray cooling stations will also be provided at the cross-country venue at Beas River.

    Suggested procedure for optimal cold-water assisted cooling. The horse and rider should be encouraged to continue exercising, even if only at
    walk or trot until they reach a cold-water station. During exercise, the blood flow is primarily directed towards the muscles, even at the expense of
    thermoregulation. When exercise stops, there is marked vasodilation (opening)
    of blood vessels in the skin. At the same time, the lack of regular muscle activity reduces venous return to the heart. This combination of factors can lead to hypotension and horses may be observed to become ataxic and even recumbent as a result. It is therefore important to try to avoid bringing horses to a complete halt immediately following exercise for more than a short period during which cooling should be instigated.

    If possible, cooling should be undertaken in the shade but this is not essential.
    The horse should be covered from head to tail in cold water, on both sides of the body and over all areas continuously for approximately 30 seconds after which the horse should walk in a circle for approximately 15 seconds. The short periods of walking help to promote circulation and maintain skin blood flow. If possible and if tolerated by the horse, application of cold-water can be continued whilst the horse is moving.

    Water can be applied using buckets or sprays. Sprays (Fig. 1) are easier to
    control and cover the whole horse, especially with two people – one working on each side of the horse. There is no requirement to scrape water from the horse at any time in the cooling procedure. Only a thin layer of warm water will ever build up on the surface of the horse and this will be displaced or cooled by application of more cold water.

    In order to cool a horse 1 °C (i.e. to reduce its body temperature by this
    amount) may take 10 minutes of intensive cooling. Horses finishing the cross
    country may have rectal temperatures close to 42 °C or higher and thus it may take 20-30 minutes of cooling to make them comfortable and to significantly reduce or eliminate blowing.

    Taking rectal temperature in horses after intense exercise can be misleading as this tends to lag behind core or muscle temperatures. It is not uncommon for rectal temperature to increase in the first 5-10 minutes after intense exercise.

    Thus, in a horse that finishes cross-country with a rectal temperature of 41°C and is still showing a rectal temperature of 41 °C after 5 minutes of intense
    cooling, this should be taken as a sign that the cooling has been effective rather than ineffective. If the cooling had been ineffective the rectal temperature would have risen.

    Common mistakes in cooling horses in this way are:
    1. Underestimating the volume of water that needs to be applied
    2. Concentrating on or avoiding specific areas of the body rather than utilising the whole of the horses’ surface (Fig. 2)
    3. Not allowing short periods of walking during the cooling

    Rapid and efficient cold-water cooling is essential for horse welfare immediately following exercise in horses that are hot. It may also be indicated in horses following warm-up but prior to competition. Warm-up has physical and psychological components. Whilst a small increase in muscle temperature
    improves muscle strength, prolonged or intense warm-up, especially in hot or
    hot and humid environments may have a negative effect. Studies in human
    athletes have indicated that pre-cooling is beneficial and may even enhance
    performance. Cooling horses before competition will not necessarily reduce the
    amount of heat that is produced during competition but will reduce the absolute temperature horses reach during exercise.

    Geor, R.J., McCutcheon, L.J., Ecker, G.L., Lindinger, M.I., 2000. Heat storage in
    horses during submaximal exercise before and after humid heat acclimation.
    Journal of Applied Physiology 89, 2283-2293.
    Kohn, C.W., Hinchcliff, K.W., McKeever, K.H., 1999. Evaluation of washing with
    cold water to facilitate heat dissipation in horses exercised in hot, humid
    conditions. American Journal of Veterinary Research 60, 299-305.
    Lindinger, M.I., McCutcheon, L.J., Ecker, G.L., Geor, R.J., 2000. Heat acclimation
    improves regulation of plasma volume and plasma Na(+) content during exercise
    in horses. Journal of Applied Physiology 88, 1006-1013
    McCutcheon, L.J., Geor, R.J., Ecker, G.L., Lindinger, M.I., 1999. Equine sweating
    responses to submaximal exercise during 21 days of heat. Journal of Applied
    Physiology 87, 1843-1851.
    Marlin, D.J., Scott, C.M., Roberts, C.A., Casas, I., Holah, G., Schroter, R.C.,
    1998. Post-exercise changes in compartmental body temperature accompanying
    intermittent cold-water cooling in the hyperthermic horse. Equine Veterinary
    Journal 30, 28-34.
    Marlin, D.J., Scott, C.M., Schroter, R.C., Mills, P.C., Roberts, C.A., Harris, R.C.,
    Harris, P.A., 1996. Acclimation of horses to high temperature and humidity. The
    Equine Athlete 9, 1-11.
    Morgan, K., 1998. Thermoneutral zone and critical temperatures of horses.
    Journal of Thermal Biology 23, 59-61.
    Williamson, L.H., White, S., Maykuth, P., Andrews, F., Sommerdahl, C., Green,
    E., 1995. Comparison between two post exercise cooling methods. Equine
    Veterinary Journal Supplement 18, 337-340.
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  11. Jumping Bean

    Jumping Bean Well-known Member

    Very interesting reading, thanks Warwick **) .
  12. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Thank you Warwick.

    It is not disrespectful or rude to state the truth. Sometimes opinions are wrong and it does not matter how experienced, old or wise a person is perceived to be. Anyone can make the wrong judgement on an issue and it certainly does not brand them stupid, it just means on this issue they are not correct.

    As you can see Janet, this method is no different to the one you describe, the only difference is the water is even colder than tap water. I hope everyone continues to cool their horses down and remove sweat after work for the benefit of the horses health without fear of white hairs developing. Or even worse, using cooling down as an excuse for white hair development.
  13. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Thank you Woki for that info.

    RR, it was not the correctness of what was said that was ever in question but more the way it comes across and is read on the computer screen.

    Cheers BM
  14. megz86

    megz86 Well-known Member

    Thank you goldenqh! I have absolutely no idea whether water can cause white hairs but this is something i do know about and goldenqh is right. Of course water gets hot when its been sitting in the pipes all day but everyone knows to let the water run for a while before using it on a hot day... This was what i was trying to say earlier in the thread. **)

    RR i am a teeny bit offended that you say i "must not have had experience with water" when in actual fact i have lived in every state of australia, have studied Advanced Water Quality and my dad is a Hydrogropher (a scientist that works with water.) I have worked on numerous fish farms and seen many set ups, including building them myself so im pretty confident that fresh tap water (or tank water or bore) does not get to body temp. If yours does then i would stop using it and get it checked.

    Everybody is entitled to an opinion but i think its the way you are going about giving yours and shutting down everyone elses that is causing the offence. You may not believe what Janet or anyone else has said but is it really neccessary to be so vicious about it? From all the posts i have read of Janets, she seems very experienced and knowledgable so even if she is wrong on this one, it doesnt mean she deserves to be treated like a retard as one day you just may need her advice on something else and i doubt she'll feel like giving it after this... :(

    I say all this in the nicest possible way and am not here to fight, just thought i would stick up for myself coz it wouldnt be me if i didnt! :)*

    now can we all be friends and start getting along???
  15. Oldhack77

    Oldhack77 Gold Member

    Exactly - I do not see the need to put down another member who is a highly intelligent person with many years of experience
  16. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Thanks for posting Woki, much appreciated. :)* **)
  17. chick_with_a_chainsaw

    chick_with_a_chainsaw Gold Member

    oh no i think somethings seriously wrong with my mare be it rubbing saddle, rug etc or the cold water as shes

    covered in white hairs!!!


    thought id try and lighten the mood
  18. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Megz86, if water is lying in pipes on a hot day the sun heats it....in fact this is how we are able to utilize the sun for solar hot water. I am sorry if it offended you but I could not believe that in your whole life you have never ever had to run the cold water tap in summer to let the cool water come through the pipes.. :confused: Another thing you have not considered is chlorination of water supplies and how chlorine helps prevent the warmed water causing problems....considering the water is not stagnant in the pipes and is chlorinated I will hold off on calling the health inspector! :)

    The whole, "RR has been nasty" rubbish just makes you look like a bunch of sore losers. I have done nothing but respond with information and explanation to attack after attack because I dared disagree with a theory that is wrong. The only people who have written nasty things about Janet have been you guys, not me. I have disagreed with a theory that Janet has proposed and considering this theory was passed on to her from a hunt club in England...well I guess in reality I am not even disagreeing with Janet, but some strange person in England!
    Last edited: May 8, 2008
  19. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    RR I think you need to re-read Megz post...she infact said that ofcourse she runs the cool water first on a hot day :confused:

    Also re-read through some of your posts, you really don't have a nice way to put anything. I don't mean just this post, but several others. I'm sure alot of other members have walked away hurt from reading your comments previously.

    It's fine to disagree, but saying that something is "impossible" is rude and hurtful. Disagreeing is one thing, nothing wrong with a healthy debate. But just plain old dismissing is so pigheaded. I'm sure GeeJay didn't make it up for laughs, she obviously has something to base her comments on, as do you. But she is not saying that anyone is dead wrong because they think it's a saddle issue.

    I believe the issue at hand was a saddle fit issue, HOWEVER I am also having an open mind for Janets theory. Fine maybe it doesn't agree with the rules of science, but who cares. How can you learn if you just dismiss every theory that comes along?

    Never mind RR, you can keep living in your "Everything I say is true" bubble.
  20. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    I do not think anyone has disagreed that water sitting in pipes gets hot RR..... it does & in the posts, everyone has said you need to run the pipes until the water runs cool.
    However fresh tap water & tank water does not get to body temp ....not sure where that figure came from but as megs says.....if once the hot water that has been laying in pipes runs through you still have water at those temps then there must be a problem .....small tank in sun maybe, but never on a decent sized water tank.
    In Perth tap water is chlorinated but you wont find that in rainwater tanks or bores & most of us in country areas are drinking water from tanks .....unclorinated & without flouride ........ tastes much better than the stuff you poor buggers get in the city :)
    Some people may have reverse ozmosis plants or UV treatments for water purity, but most use either untreted rainwater, bore water or treated dam water by means other than chlorine. :)
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