what colour is this foal

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by Pepsea, Oct 9, 2009.

  1. Delrae

    Delrae Gold Member

    sorrell is just another term for Chestnut, it is an American term as well as Taffy (australian term) is also the same as silver, so calling a horse a silver taffy is like calling them a taffy taffy or a silver silver. One parent has to be or carry the silver gene for it to be a silver

    A silver bay can range from looking like a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail through to the darker bay with silver mane and tail
    A silver black or dapple is your traditional chocolate colour with silver mane and tail
    A chestnut can carry the silver gene but will not show silver, It can pass the gene on
    A brown horse can quite often be misidentified and can actually be a smokey black which is a dilute and also without knowing the colour behind the parents we dont know if the Palomino is carrying the silver gene if so you could have this percentage
    Offspring Color Probability

    16.67% - Palomino
    8.33% - Smoky Black
    8.33% - Silver Smoky Black
    8.33% - Silver Buckskin
    8.33% - Buckskin
    8.33% - Cremello
    8.33% - Chestnut
    4.17% - Smoky Cream
    4.17% - Silver Smoky Cream
    4.17% - Silver Perlino
    4.17% - Silver Dapple
    4.17% - Silver Bay
    4.17% - Perlino
    4.17% - Black
    4.17% - Bay

    In saying all that I would still guess she is a sooty or smutty palomino
    here is another pic of one
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2009
  2. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    I think that you think she was born a straight chestnut but was really born a dark pally & you didn't pick it up.

    Eo bred his cremello mare to my stallion, who is a very dark chestnut. The resulting foal was of course a palomino but a very dark one. He had many people argue that his foal was a chestnut......it was genetically impossible for that to occur.

    Of course when his mane & tail grew out white the arguments stopped LOL

    Palomino foals can be born anywhere from a light cream to a dark chestnut looking colour although when you put then next to a real chestnut you can see the difference....... I think they can look a bit like a red dun as a foal.

    I think if you get your foal genetically tested it will come back palomino & the dark is just the evidence of the smutt gene. You will find her called either smutty or sooty palomino, but it is the same colour.

    Depending on the time of year & the protien levels she is getting in her feed will depend on how much smutt shows up. I can remember seeing one of Colibans mares that changed from a golden palomino to nearly black :)

    Our girl is the same.....she can be a very gold or nearly black also :)
  3. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

    My friends pally, and she goes even darker than this:)* Pretty sure the sire of the pony that Pepsea put up does not carry silver, but Dollar would know for sure:)
  4. Remaani

    Remaani Guest

    Be interesting Wildwood if you Colour Test her, would love to know the results. :)
    Knowing there is a Pali parent, i'd say Smutty Pali too but still be nice to know.

    Here are some Silvers, only the top one i still own (& yes he IS Silver) but the others i use to own, but interesting the different shades.


    The below 3 pics are the same horse, lol.
    (& very sad as he left WA yesty & will be at his new home tonight or tomorrow :()




    Another Silver.



    Not had a Silver Bay - yet but hope too, lovely colour!
  5. Lakota

    Lakota Well-known Member

    Lovely girl Wildwood, and a definite pally I would say :)

    I have a chestnut yearling colt by the same sire, who shed out chestnut as a weanling, but has got us a bit stumped with his yearling coat. I am still 95% sure he is some kind of chestnut, but he is certainly making it interesting! I would get pictures, but he looks like a total feral so I am waiting for him to lose that 3 inch winter coat before anybody sees him!

    His mane is flaxen, his tail chestnut/silver and his coat atm is hard to describe - almost the palest chestnut you could think of. Not sure whether his summer coat will be this colour, or he will darken up. Dying to know though!!
  6. manocaaron

    manocaaron Well-known Member

    She may well be a palomino as you guys know parents etc....

    More about the colour Taffy and the Silver Dapple

    Silver is an american term and taffy used to be the Astralian term. Taffy is more appropriate than silver as All Silver Dapples are Taffy but NOT all taffys are silver dapple!!! The diluting action of the taffy gene from the Z series is unique as it affects black pigmentation more strongly than it affects red pigment which is affected only slightly.
    you have:

    Red Taffy (red and bay taffy) bright reddish-orange body colour, free from any sootiness, with rich chocolate or tan points on legs, blonde mane/tail. Frequently mane/tail hairs are streaked with silvery black hairs and sometimes the blonde hairs are even absent. Often confused with bay, or red dun, particularily if it carries the dorsal stripe, in poor coat condition it can be confused with chestnut with flaxen mane and tail.
    Blue Taffy a very dark, sometimes bluish colour, with orange-red highlights, particular around lower parts of body. body has large shadows of chocolate colour with, sometimes, pale dapples through it. the mane and tail apear silver, but on close examination reveals a mixture of blonde and black hairs. rarely the silvering is limited to just the tips of mane and tail, these are best described as dark taffy with dark mane and tail.

    Silver Dapple The classic silver dapple or taffy pattern is described as sepia-brown body colouring, flaxen or ivory mane and tail. Flaxen extremities, particularly on the coronet and pasterns and a striking pattern of cream or flaxen dapples on the body. Sometimes these dapples are as large as a fist and looking like veins of marble. the darker the base colour the more striking the dapples appear.
    The foal is born pinkish cream or biscuit coloured similar to a palomino, with a mouse-grey face, the dapples can be completely absent at birth.

    Chocolate Taffy Dark taffys that do not display the dapples. Known in the US as Chocolate Flax.

    Chestnut Taffy The taffy gene can be superimposed onto a chestnut horse with barely any visible effect, although some have a fawn dappled appearance. On liver chestnut the taffy can look dull smokey, or chocolate-tan with silverish or flaxen mane and tail, easily mistaken for chocolate Palomino, and liver flaxen, but mane and tail are less 'clean'. Those with darker mane and tail may be mistaken for liver chestnut or dilute black, but there are usually a few revealing light dapples on the lower legs or lower cheeks.

    I do have photos of these but it could be a while before I can load them up....
  7. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    A "Silver Dapple" is just a black silver, its just referred to as "dapple" because the coat dapples.

    Taffy & Silver are the same thing, Silver is the genetically correct term as it is the name of the gene.
  8. manocaaron

    manocaaron Well-known Member

    below quote from the following website:
    The silver, silver dapple, chocolate flax or Taffy gene.

    "The name silver dapple should probably be reserved for horses that have both dapples and a silver mane and tail. Not all horses with the dilution gene look like that. Similarly the term "chocolate" is often used in the Rocky Mountain Horse breed, but doesn’t describe the color of all horses with the dilution gene. Taffy is a more general term that’s sometimes used and is probably a better one since the dilution gene can occur in horses of any color of base coat, giving different visual affects accordingly, but it isn't generally accepted, and the term silver is now more usual. The silver gene is denoted by the symbol “Z” and the dilution allele is dominant over non-dilution. "

    having allways used the term "Taffy" I prefer to continue with it. :)

    The colour also exists in the native Icelandic pony, It should be noted that importation of horses into Iceland has been prohibited for 900 years so obviously the breed is very pure and the colour has been around for a long time.
  9. Pepsea

    Pepsea Gold Member

    get her tested liv!!

    after seeing a few pics of smutty pallys, i think shes one of them haha, a smutty pally deffinatly seams to be the only explination? (there is no silver in her lines is there?)

    shes gorgeous no matter wat! and i love her perfrct blaze
  10. Delrae

    Delrae Gold Member

    I agree Manocaaron, regarding the silver gene, I think what I was trying to say though was it doesnt matter which term you use they are the same colour it IS a silver gene on a base colour and the term silver is now more commonly used than taffy, but dont say it is a silver taffy because that is a double up... I also one of those that was brought up to calling them taffy, but I was also brought up to calling pinto's skewies and piebalds too!!! :D but I changed.....lol
  11. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    lol you misunderstand :) when I call a horse "silver" I am referring to it carrying the "Silver Gene", not the colour of its coat, and the term "silver dapple taffy" was created to describe a black silver - as it is silvery coloured with dapples and is a "taffy"...

    It doesnt really matter what you call it we'll know what your talking about, but the correct name is Silver.
  12. seedytoe

    seedytoe Well-known Member

    a bit like "ATM machine"....Automatic Teller Machine machine
  13. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    just to throw another spanner in... has the Pally parent had the dilute gene DNA verified?? It can be so easily done with the whole DNA colour testing being relatively new, the old way of determining colour VS the new way. The Pally parent may well be something else, or cary the silver gene :))
    Will be interesting to find out :)
  14. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

    He is reg with the Dilutes as Palomino:)* He looks to be a very dark boy with smutting from his photos:) If you google his name you will find the handsome man:)*
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  15. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I'm not up with my colours But a ? that entered my head is " being that chestnut dilutes to palomino/ cremello and bay dilutes to buckskin/perlino, if born chestnut is it possible to change to get a silver bay"?

    Just curious. :)

    sorry early morning post, edited to add the buckskin and cremello. sorry.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2009
  16. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    **) well then, I'll put my vote in for a smutt Pally :))
  17. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    Umm...no if it born a chestnut it will remain a chestnut :)

    single dilute of bay is buckskin & double is perlino.

    I reckon this foal was born a palomino :).....singlw dilute of chestnut.....which is what I thought before even knowing what colour both Sire & dam are. After knowing what they are now I am even more sure its a pally :)
  18. Delrae

    Delrae Gold Member

    BM... if the pally sire has silver in his lineage then it could be possible that the pally like a chestnut can carry the silver gene, put to a brown which is still a bay gene the foal could then be a silver bay and some of these can indeed look "chestnut".....so you are correct, not that they can change but could be a silver bay, so yes that is possible but again you would need the colour behind the parents

    But to keep it simple the more obvious thought is that the foal is a smutty pally
  19. wawa85

    wawa85 Guest

    Just looked up the sire on the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Studbook and out of 19 progency he has sired:

    4 buckskins
    3 Duns
    6 Chestnuts (one turning grey)
    3 Bays (one turning grey)
    2 registered creams
    1 registered palomino

    The stallion himself is listed as being a 'cream' but wth the WPCS that most likely means pali. Interestingly his progency listed as being dun are out of bays so are most likely buckskins. Your friends yearling is registered as a Chestnut, the sire is pali, and dam bay so possibly the yearling is a buckskin with the silver gene or chestnut taffy, as she definately does not look like a flaxen chestnut
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2009
  20. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

    The welsh society call pallies cream and buckskins dun**) I am pretty sure their is no silver in the sires line:)*

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