warmblood quartehorse cross

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by Lilac, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Ctct
    your previous comment tells me that breeding horses is not your forte:)
    You might be a vet attending tothe needs of sheep farmers but have a very limited personal experience in breeding horses (which is quite different to mating them):). Otherwise you would've known that different genetics within the same breed do produce different physical types of animals which in turn determines their movement and how well they ride and how comfortable and trainable they are under saddle. So in fact breeders choose certain genetics to produce a better riding horse:)
    Foals can be born on the same stud farm, have the same start, environment and feeding regime but their movement would be different, depending on their genetic make up. We are witnessing it for nearly 20 years in a row, producing 6-10 foals a year and you are implying that I'm telling fibs (putting it mildly, lol)?:D
    How many have you bred yourself to justify the above statement?:D
     
  2. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Coliban, why would their movement be different if pedigree alone were the deciding factor? That is the bit I think ctct is calling bull**** on. If pedigree were the only deciding factor, all full brothers & sisters would look, move and perform exactly the same. That can not (and does not) happen.
     
  3. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I never said that genetics alone determined success.
    That would be a stupid comment to make.
    But seeing as genes are the first component of existence it stands to reason if I want a cutter or a pacer I better sure be breeding for certain traits cause if I'm not then I'm getting one of the horses Old Mate seems preoccupied with.....lolol.

    CTCT the fact you had two standardbreds that trot in the paddock is amazing! Have you also owned another breed of horse who can pace when required?
    Or do you think that it would be real easy for any horse to pace and race?
    I've had dozens of standardbreds that trot in the paddock, not trotters, pacers. But I've never had one of my stockhorses pace.



    Your answer to that was "bullshit". So what percentage do you give to that......
    So maybe you could explain where bullshit sits on your 'don't agree meter'.

    Lets face it CTCT and others. You have never bred anything in numbers big enough to call it 'experience'. You've never bred the same mare over and over and seen results through to maturity. You've never bred anything that competed or showed, and your comments are based on a complete dislike for a few people who DO do those things.

    While trying to sound smart and worldly the replies are nothing more than indigestion....really. You can't back up a single arguement you are sprouting with any examples let alone your names. Fixated on "lincoln" not one of you have come forth with your horses and said anything. Pity. I mean it's always fun but even I get bored having to read the same old nah nah ni nah nah we don't like you poof poof poof.

    I live by my examples and the examples of 10's of millions of other breeders who begin horse breeding with a pedigree. You needed to start a few hundred years ago to beat that.
     
  4. Because the movement of a halter bred QH differs greatly from a movement of a WP bred horse for example.
     
  5. wawa85

    wawa85 Guest

    That's true, breeding type to type to get a specific result :)

    Genetics is a very interesting topic. There's been a lot of tea search that discounts the whole nature vs nurture thing and now it is generally accepted that nature and nurture both determine the result as EVP has said :) this would include height, build, temperament and movement of the horse as environment can alter the way a genetic predisposition such as height is determined. I.e poor nutrition in a brood mare and poor nutrition as a foal has an effect on growth of said foal. Handling has an effect on temperament.
     
  6. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Please don't feel the need to educate me :p

    I was just replying to your comment that rideability depends on pedigree. Yes, you can breed type to type based on pedigree, but an astute breeder still needs to look at the physical horse. That is the point I was addressing. That one can't just look at two pedigrees (of say, cutters) and say...well, these two will produce a good cutter. It's an increased likelihood, yes.
     
  7. I have just merealy answered your question:p
    There would be a by far better chance of getting a better end result from choosing a prospective cross on paper than looking at horse flesh with no knowledge of their pedigrees.

    My "ugliest" mare( due to a severe prematurity) continuously produces me the most beautiful foals bred to different stallions. She has the looks only mother could love.
    If I were wattle I wouldn't have bought her, i am glad I trusted her breeding.
     
  8. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Why wouldn't you have bought her ';' I haven't used a "pretty" mare, yet, to breed from ;) Not much point in hunter-types :p
     
  9. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Until you are able to trigger the genomes individually breeding by genetics is just a slightly more educated gamble.
    Otherwise we would have paddocks full of Pharlaps running around.
    All of these breeds started out with people crossing nice types in order to get a horse that suited the breeders purpose.
    So in the case of the mare used in the second example of this thread it was a planned careful breeding to meet the needs of the rider.

    There are racing breeders breeding horses to make them faster, not better. They only have to go fast for a short period of time and from a very early age.
    Commercial race breeding is not about making the breed better it is about making the horses fast in order to get the $$$$.
    All about the money and not about the long term welfare of the horses. No ethics involved in that only $$$$.
     
  10. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Here's a very easy question for you Old Mate, CTCT and anyone else who cares to post.

    Is it OK to breed to, or from, horses with no known parentage?

    My answer is NO.

    There would be one exception. And no it's not for meat. But it isn't relevent.

    CTCT if you are a vet I presume that in determining a diagnosis for an animal it is more than helpful if they have a history? Or do you just assume that every yellow larger cross-bred dog just needs to see a Chiro because of their painful hind limp? What you say........it's not important that the cross-bred dog has a percentage of Labrador in his breeding because you can SEE that?

    Or even a medical history......would make your treatment options clearer if you knew it had been in 4 times over the past 3 months for the same thing?

    Records. Data. Statistics. Breed references. Seems you don't think pedigree is worth much at all. I fail to see how it is now accepted that breeding dogs and cats willy nilly is contra to everything most people consider ethical...YET you defend the breeding of horses without the use of breeding records (pedigrees identify parents). In a nut shell you think the sum of a horse is what you see and therefore that is a valid enough reason to breed it?

    One would hope that the person using 'the eye' as the measuring stick actually knows something about horses. Or is that presumptuous, that they might know about anatomy of horses, flight and form to function for a purpose?

    What's wrong with breeding horses for excellence? And this is not exclusive to deep pockets either. People with a finite budget can still breed to better an individual.
    The knowledge of what is, or makes a fine specimen of a breed isn't governed by the wallet. Lots of rich people are very horse dumb, and lots of not-so-rich people are very horse smart.
    The only difference being the ability to get hold of higher quality mares (performed/producing). The theory behind breeding better or for excellence is the same. Up is up. The only way to get there is swim in the gene pool or drown in the sea of millions.
     
  11. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Back on that pedastal again. OK. The horse racing industry is an industry. It's built on winning. Winning races means speed and endurance. Your complete lack of knowledge here is showing. Because yes, horse race breeders have been breeding for endurance and stamina for ever. Sprinters and stayers.

    How can you divide faster and better. I certainly can't. And you want to redefine 'ethics'!

    Faster IS better because that is the primary objective of that industry! Its a no-brainer. Someone wants a horse with more cow.....they breed for it. They want a horse with more scope for jumping they breed for it. They don't lucky dip it. It's a genetic assessed calculation. Or it should be.

    Long term welfare of the horse....:rolleyes:.......we've been there before but for the benefit of the gallery.
    Other horse breeds make up the greater percentage of wastage in the equine world.
    Wastage in racing is a problem that is addressed and tackled thoughtfully in both codes. So is the ethics in the treatment of greyhounds.

    Can you tell me Old Mate, who in the general public take as much time and thought to thinking about horse wastage? Or does it only start at the rescue places?
    Obviously not many because people like you continue to defend the right to breed horses of unknown parentage.
     
  12. Well said, EVP:)
     
  13. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Fast for a short period of a horses life not over a distance.
    Don't bother trying to tell me that race breeders are breeding for a sane long term sound horse, because they are not it is all about the speed and $$$.
    I don't breed at all because there are more than enough horses on the ground.
    The horse in my paddock is a racing reject .
    It is a bit rich comming from some one who breeds a lot of horses with out much thought about what will happen to them after racing to say that people should not be able to breed a horse for personal use.
    The warm blood cross is more able to get a home than one of your Standies.
    PTS after racing would be kinder in some cases than trying to rehome one.

    CQHS is a breeder who is trying to improve the breed and produce a better sound sane horse and at some cost to the personal pocket as well.

    Nanny please note this post is sort of on topic, lol
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  14. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    Ok so no one except OM cares who Lincoln is but you want to out me as a vet....:lol: Can anyone say "double standards"? Or spell "clique"? I have no idea who you think I am but hey hum.
    In answer to your query EVP no I don't see anything wrong in breeding a well conformed mare whose breeding I do not know AS LONG AS SHE HAS DONE SOMETHING. clearly she has the genetics in there somewhere to allow her to perform.
    What I DO have an issue with is your constant assertion that somehow, in the rather mysterious world of random genetic assortment, because she has no papers, the bad genes are more likely to come to the fore than the good ones!
    And one could argue from from your previous comments, such a mare must have even better genes because, given the utter inability of HER breeder to have any knowledge of pre or post natal nutrition, she has overcome her crappy environment...
    I have a full day of riding ahead on our mix of papered horses, mutts (bought not bred) and carefully planned crossbreds.. We expect to do quite well.
    I shall now leave you lot to your pitchforks...
     
  15. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    [
    I responded to someone else who made that assumption so I don't want to "out" you in anything. If you wish to remain anon then that is your perogative.

    Done what? Be able to be ridden? At what level?
    And without knowing HER background how do you expect to enhance her genes? And what do you expect when you breed to her a stallion? Perhaps he could be her brother from another mother. She may carry a defective gene that expresses with the additional genetic material from a stallion? And you would never know would you. And you could prevent this how?
    Your assertions are so ludricious they border on laughable. And I am very inclined to believe you couldn't possibly be a vet!

    Random genetic assortment? Yes she would have this, and you are prepared to gamble that by breeding it on? Why? Papers are PARENTAL VERIFICATION. By the very nature of them and the trail they leave it makes breeding UP less random!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And breeding an unknown mare you'd be playing Russian Roulette and be hoping that any good genes she possessed were carried to the fore in her foal? And what about the bad genes that your eyes can't see. Or is this where your rose coloured glasses come in handy?

    I'm guessing that you are talking about one single individual mare here. If you are breeding from a mare with unknown breeding, all the pre or post natal care will not influence the genes of whatever foal she has. Sorry to tell you. She is the sum of all that came before her.

    A mutt is a dog of mixed breeds right? And you bought one but didn't breed it? Why the distinction?
    On behalf of all the people who allow their dogs to breed on, I am offended.
    I mean surely you couldn't be suggesting that mutt dogs shouldn't be bred? Why would that be?
    Wouldn't be because crossbred dogs, or those bred by people who have no idea what they are doing, are a HUGE welfare issue and are in flood proportions - could it? Oh and horses don't get the same considerations.....probably because you can't ride a dog.

    No you couldn't possibly be a vet. Most, if not all vets, would see it as their moral and professional obligation to caution against such actions and would seek to lead by example? Least that's my take on "ethics and professional".

    Your arguements are all about doing what you want because there is no law that prevents it. Then you set about trying to justify those views and actions.

    You obviously know about plague numbers of dogs and cats. Animals of unknown parentage bred on by people who fail to neuter them. A kaleidoscope of sizes and colours, cute and defenseless critters who are the result of someone's negligence, lack of knowledge, thoughtlessness, carelessness - either deliberate or accidental........and in general terms horses bred the same way by the same people are exempt????

    My turn: bullshit.
    You didn't put down your pitchfork. You fell on your sword.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  16. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

     
  17. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Back to the warmblood cross,you EVP have said that the Standardbreds that you breed are not fit for riding.

    You produce these horses, what is your solution for these horses that you bred after racing, when they no longer have any valve ( according to you )

    The warmblood cross with,some education will always have a higher valve in the non racing world the the off the track Standie. Or even a Standie who has a lot of education under saddle.

    In terms of looking at the horse having a long term home the Warmblood is the better option of horse to breed. If you are going to breed at all.
     
  18. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Is this your equilivent to 'lesser of 2 evils'?

    Where have I said the standardbreds I bred are not fit for riding.
    What I have said and continue to say is that if someone wants a riding horse then looking at the standardbred is not the best first option. They are not bred for riding. They are bred for pulling a gig. Yes you can ride one, you can ride that Jersey cow if you want. Heck you can ride an Emu or a Zebra.
    If you want a horse that finds 3 paces rather easy - then a standardbred is not a good option.
    What do I do with my horses that fail to race at all? Fillies are sent to repro and geldings have been rehomed. One pulls a wedding carriage thing in Victoria somewhere, one was ridden for a while by a lady and then dogged and the other one dogged. I won't breed fillies that haven't shown me anything on the track, with one exception - a young mare from a mare we lost tragically a few years back. The only reason we breed her is she is from one of the most famous female families in Australia.

    We are not talking about rideability here. Hands down a warmblood cross would make a better riding prospect than a standardbred. I don't see your point here?
    A warmblood x quarter horse might be something that someone thinks is going to be better than a quarter horse and better than a warmblood. Good for them. When it wins something seriously sit up and take notice, I might be inclined to sit up and take notice, and then consider doing the cross myself.:cool:
    When a horse of unknown parentage wins the Melbourne Cup or Interdominion or an Olympic medal or some other news worthy event, I will go and buy some random mare who I think looks OK and breed her to a stallion who I also think looks OK.
    While I will never know WHY she looks OK and whether she looks like she does BECAUSE of her blood or INSPITE of it, I will excitedly look forward to her foal arriving. It will be like Xmas morning all fireplace, jammies and surprises.
    I will then promise to keep it forever and ever and say I bred it just for me for my personal use. :rolleyes:
     
  19. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Here's a little tale just for you Old Mate and CTCT.

    Hypothetical of course.

    I've got this great little dog. Her name is Twinkle. We inherited her and we've had her for 3 years. She is a great family dog, hasn't cost us a cent in vet bills, is so well behaved and everyone who comes just falls in love with her. She is soooo smart and has been a dream to train. She's small to medium in size and has a short easy to keep clean coat. Because she is such a pleasure to own and has so many great qualities we have decided to breed her.
    My cousins brother has this amazing Foxie called Snoopy. He doesn't have papers but when he answered the puppy ad he got to see the mother and the father, so Snoopy is pedigree. He didn't care about the papers anyway cause he would never show a dog. And Snoopy looks like a Foxie fullstop.

    So Twinkle and Snoopy are going to get married. When she has her pups we have decided we're going to keep one because Twinks is such a great dog and having two won't be a problem. The other pups should go really quickly. I've told heaps of people and they are really keen. Or, I can take them to the pet shop when they are old enough.

    Excited much.


    Now this "person" sounds like a nice enough person. Loves her dog and the family members love their male dog too. Two nice, well-loved, happy dogs. One a definate mutt, the other appears to resemble a Foxie, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.
    In my opinion this is irresponsible despite the fact that both dogs are nice dogs, and the owners seem like nice people. Why?
    Because for every one of these scenarios of nice people who are giving this thought/purpose and it's not a jump the fence thing......there are thousands out there, exactly the same, the product of less thought and some even arrived with more thought!
    People breeding 'small to small' or for more fluff......these people are "thinking" about it, before doing it.
    'Thoughtful' doesn't cut it. It is wrong on so many levels. Nothing to do with whether the people are nice, rich, poor, or own a house or rent a house. There has to be a measuring stick and a line in the sand.
    Pedigree isn't guarantee. But it is a great place to start. Start, and go up with as much finance as you can muster.

    Or don't do it.
    Indignant, probably. But it is the reality and like it or not "breeding" like the above is in no way shape or form - BREEDING.

    This is the same as breeding horses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  20. lincoln

    lincoln New Member

    I want to know who old mate is ?
    cause let me tell you I woulndt want to be buying any horse they sold
    you got no idea what you are talking about and want to call me a redneck.
    your posts make no dam sense at all except your great hate for some one who is working in and with the horse industry. I feel sorry for you, being so full of stuff in your head but not knowing the reality of what upsets you so much. Get out and see some of the world including what happens in racing circles. I dont condone a lot of what happens in racing. But a lot of bad stuff happens to horses at the hands of inexperienced people. What ever your problem is youd do better to actually read what some of the others has posted. You might learn some thing. Im not going to put up my horses names or mention the winners Ive helped select for breeders. Thats bad luck. I dont care whether you beleive me or not, but I sure as hell beleive what you are writing and yep you are exactly as you post. You know nothing except to be rude.
     

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