Wanting to learn, breeding question

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by Kodas Karen, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    I've been reading with fascination the thread on WB X and it's got me wondering something. First off I am not a breeder and am not getting into breeding!

    I do however own a pretty special 2+1/2 year old filly who I got from a breeder. She is a QHXTB paint (as in my avatar). Now the breeder bred her for her genetics and long story short, even though she knows her genetic breeding (Sire QH registered, Dam QHXTB unregistered and unable to be) she can never be registered. Sire was obviously a chestnut and Dam was coloured like her.

    I would love to hear all of your opinions on the pros and cons of breeding her with an outstanding QH when she's older. Just for me, not to sell and no I have no intention on turning her into a foal making factory. Up until I read that thread I thought she'd have a lovely foal to the right stallion ...... now..... I just learned my place with that train of thought -big time!

    Feel free to fire away. I am genuinely interested in hearing everyones opinion.

    *Edited to fix stupid autocorrect spelling*
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  2. kiraSpark

    kiraSpark Gold Member

    Hi Kodas Karen, I know Im not really answering your question here, but I found it interesting, its clear your filly is tobiano, her sire is a solid chestnut QH, and you've been told her dam is a TBxQH - but the clincher is - there is no tobiano/broken colour gene in either TBs or QH's.

    I'd be delving a little deeper into her dams breeding, because the chances are very great the dam is not a QHxTB. Maybe the breeders mean shes a Paint x TB?

    The colour has to come from somewhere, and it doesnt come from the TB side or the QH side.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  3. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    Kirraspark yes you are correct, sorry, Paintxtb....where was my head when I was typing that, sorry have QH's on my mind! (And I wasn't even drinking when I typed that!)

    Thank you for the correction (blushing in embarrassment ..lol)
  4. kiraSpark

    kiraSpark Gold Member

    Lol! Im glad we got that sorted out!! :p **)
  5. Kk:)
    If you want to breed her in future you should test het for frame overo, she might be a carrier. And make sure if she is, not to breed her to another frame horse not to create a lethal white foal.
    Also I would test her for genetic disorders across the 5 panel test through animal genetics.
    If you breed her to a QH, your foal will never be registered.
    The decision to breed or not to breed is entirely yours.
  6. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Karen, could you explain why the dam can't be registered Paint (if you know, that is). Your filly can be registered Pinto and Combined Broken Colour Horse Society. Although not a breed registration, your filly CAN be registered.

    If the Breeder bred her for her genetics, why didn't she retain her ';'

    If you do choose to breed her with a QH in the future, you would have to hope the resulting foal was coloured, or it would not be eligible for breed registrations either. While a non-QH mare could be FM registered, I think your's exceeds the white (not sure, haven't Foundation registered anything) **)**)
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  7. KK:)
    Your mare is not eligible for AQHA FM ( foundation mare) registry.
  8. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    Her breeder wanted to keep her because of lots of reasons but she did say to me her temperament and colour were awesome...I'm not privy to her knowledge but she made it clear to me the Dam was a high quality mare. She no longer retained the Dam because she was killed in a storm when Koda was 3 months old, and from the information I have, the breeder was confident she could register both the Dam and the Sire only to find out that the Dam's lineage is untraceable through papers, even though her knowledge of the lineage was solid.
  9. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    I have no high hopes of registering the foal for anything....silly I know, but I see so many qualities in this filly that are beyond other horses I've seen and had and after having a very long, and lots of conversations with the breeder I see potential in this filly to give me an offspring I would adore as much or if not more than her. I would love for you to meet her! She is smart, fast to learn, athelitic ,l and my god her body can turn and stop on an old fashioned one cent piece. She copes with my kids without battering an eyelid (they are young), the dog (big and usually tagged aggressive...American bulldog who is a sweetie and her best play mate) motor bikes, me, my husband..his alcohol...he.he.he.he....ha..ha..ha..ha.. and just about anything I throw at her. She is young, she is smart and she is inredibally balanced. (I cannot spell so great, forgive me). I have had and ridden lots of horses but she is special......how do I register that? And how does the breeder confirm that her breeding with the Dam and Sire are just as she thought?
  10. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    I know, I've looked into it extensively and I am sure of that. What a shame. But it is what it is!
  11. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    Sorry for the so many posts but I don't know yet how to do a lot at once.

    I hear what you are saying and I really understand it....otherwise any old hag would be registered...

    What I'm baffled with is why can't she be registered as a Foundation Paint......hello! Isn't that obvious or is it just me? If a Sire is a QHreg and the Dam is OBVIOUSLY a Paint of some sort crossed with a..................... (thanks for getting my facts straight for me KiraSpark...)

    I'm a dumb arse but hello? Like you said KiraSpark, the colour has to come from somewhere.......................

    But that is another thing.....

    Always, thank for reading and thank you all for your input, it is most graciously appreciated!

  12. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    Thank you a million thanks for this information. This is new to me, and nothing I know about or would have known of until your post.

    Can I be stupid please and ask what a frame overo is....this is all so new to me I don't want to stuff up any horse, born or yet to be born. I have heard of the 5 panel test and was willing to do this first, but the frame thing is a newy for me.

    With sincere thanks,
  13. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    I think the Pinto is the way to go...shame really though when I read the history of Paints in Australia and Koda is quite clearly a Paint.....

    I really do appreciate the time you have taken to reply to my question and look forward to more helpful information.

    I am sincerely here to learn to be a better horseperson all round. I never thought that registering and breeding would come into my spectrum, but here it is!

  14. kK:D
    Some Paints carry a frame overo gene. If you breed two frames together you might end up with a lethal white foal who would die 100%.
    Have you tried to contact PHAA? I think you might have more luck with a Paint registration of some sort ( I am not involved with Paints so can't comment in depth).
    Good luck:)
  15. Kodas Karen

    Kodas Karen New Member

    No I haven't. Thank you for your help. I appreciate it and I will do. Lucky she is just a baby herself and I'm not ready to get her up the duff...LOL...

    Yes, now I've been drinking!!! Lol!

  16. kiraSpark

    kiraSpark Gold Member

    Hi Karen
    I think you might be getting Paint and Pinto mixed up :)

    Paint is a breed. Like a Clydie is a breed. Or a Quarter Horse is a breed.

    Pinto is a colour. Like palomino. Or bay. Or chestnut.

    Your horse is a Pinto. Her breeding may have some Paint in it (we think!), but she is not a Paint horse. She is not the result of a Paint sire and a Paint dam bred together. She has TB, and QH in her breeding also. (And yes, they are the only other breeds allowed in a Paint registry...but you know what I mean I hope). By now shes not a Paint horse. You could very loosely call her 'paint-bred', maybe.... but to be honest the greatest part of her known blood is QH, so shes a first cross Quarter Horse, really. (Or QH cross, whatever). A pinto one. :) ;)
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  17. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Did you ask the breeder why the foal's mother cannot be registered?
    If so what was the explanation.
  18. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Am I correct that the breeder of your horse also bred the sire and dam?
    Because if that person was the one doing the registration they either bred them or acquired them unregistered and then went about doing the things for registration (DNA testing ect)?

    If someone wants to breed a horse (registerable) the first thing they should do is check that registration of sire and dam is completed. That way before the mare is bred you know that the resulting foal is going to be able to get registration and enter the studbook.

    It is always a very bad idea to assume things are in order, breed the mare, get a foal and THEN chase up paperwork. Unfortunately the end result is what you have with your mare now.

    If the mare was a high quality mare I am wondering why it is so difficult to trace and then prove her parentage? If the breeder bred this mare do they remember the granddam? Do they remember where they got her from ect ect? These are questions that could give a trail to follow for YOU. YOU might be able to trace old owners ect from each bit of information you gather.

    This detective work has been done with other horses before. Did that mare have any other foals? Are they alive? This might be a good place to start.

    The breeder of your mare says her father is the registered QH and her mother was the TB X Paint. Without DNA you cannot be certain of this. You are having to rely wholly on the statements of the breeder. A registration that includes DNA is a buyers concrete proof that what they are getting is what they are told. This is a fundamental benefit of registered horses. DNA does not lie.

    Your mare sounds an absolute gem. These horses are really special and it is a shame that you cannot attribute these qualities to anything other than what you see and experience. There is no law that says you cannot breed a foal from your mare. You own her and you have the right to do whatever you like with her.

    Personally, given the fact that you are feeling deflated at not being able to 100% say where she came from, and know whether she carries any genetic defects that might affect a foal, do you think it's fair to breed a foal that will carry on the same lack of identification?
    You may think you can offer a foal a forever home. In reality very few people can do this - breed a horse and keep it under their care and control for at least 20 years. All good plans so out the window when life gets in the way. Then the result is a possible mare out there, bred by you, owned by someone else now, and down the line put in foal without so much as a backward glance (especially if it is coloured).
    Some people might not think this is a big deal, and not even consider what happens way down the track. If you cannot offer a foal the priviledge of a registration proving from where it came, then the question is do you want to add to the millions of other horses out there with no parental verification?

    For what it's worth, as much as you love your mare and appreciate all her great qualities, and you really want to learn about breeding and all the great things it can offer and teach, then why not start with a registered mare?
    Maybe explore buying a filly foal with registration and starting there?
    Buy a registered mare in foal with breeding certificate and wait for your registerable foal to arrive?

    What comes next is up to you. And ultimately is your choice.
  19. mylittlepony

    mylittlepony Well-known Member

    She can be registered as a foundation mate with the PHAA. They accept TB and QH blood and IMO paint rego is worth more that just the standard colour rego with the pinto society.
  20. EVP

    EVP Gold Member


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