Vindictive horses?

Discussion in 'Problem Horses' started by Court Eagle, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. sparkie

    sparkie Well-known Member

    a reader? hmmm
    i maybe wrong with the vet and the breeding part..what ever takes your fancy..but regardless my point is the training and teaching of any kind of animal or person should be taken as an individual and not used as a general all round use of teaching.(and of course what i am talking about are the finer things in training not the generalised parts)..each animal person etc should be taught according to their behaviours and reactions etc...i am not accusing of anyone being wrong after "breaking in" a large amount of horses, i am only offering a more deeper and collected reasoning for behaviours in what ever species.

    i still dont agree with vindictive horse only badly behaved which are due to past experiences whether or not it has had a bad experience everything deletes distorts and generalises (did you know a human deletes distorts and generalizes over 32,000 bits of information per second, this is how we get peoples different version of the same event etc) all in so many different ways the information going in. if you get a horse with a deformaty and acts vindictive that is not generally its fault and it is only the behaviour it has HAD to ADAPT to, is it something that we can help with? i am unsure as every horse i have worked with that has claimed to be a nutter or "something" wrong with, it has never shown any signs of nasty or vindictive behaviour in my veiw and always has come out of that behaviour but once it gets home back to the same surroundings and strategies that is another story.

    has anyone come across a situation with a horse with such a bad deformaty that is was vindictive or vicious at all...just out of curiosity...?
    i suppose i look at this stuff very differently with the training i have done with human and animal behaviour neuro linguistic programming etc (it goes deeper than just the surface and i go into the reasoning for the behaviour.

    it is only my thoughts on the subject.

    I sit and ponder on the higher branch of the tree which not many tend to be able to see which the tree below me is below me and actually not apart of the branch which i sit and ponder on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  2. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Horses are not always a product of a bad experience. I have seen foals who have never experienced any hardship show a sour attitude to life in general and really object to being handled ect. They are not ill-bred or in-bred and most likely didn't suffer any harm at birth or during gestation.....they are just sourpusses.
    Now my guess is that horses who are born like this or grow like this will end up in trouble if they don't have a knowledgeable and skillful owner.....because the harder a horse protests, the harder and more forceful some owners become.

    Some horses have had absolutely no bad experiences yet are still the most disrespectful beasts imaginable......so who to blame then?
    They can't be reacting to some horrible past trauma.....unless it was in a past life!

    There really is only one thing that a horse respects, and that is leadership tempered with a kind hand.
    Everything else are feelings that WE have because we are human and are capable (as superior beings) of having them.

    There is no comparison between humans with neuro issues or deformaties and horses or animals with issues.....
    I think some people project too much 'human' into horses.......
    And in doing so miss the point entirely about why we chose to have a relationship with them.........its because they are an animal and we enjoy the interaction. We don't want to take them for coffee.....ahahahahaha

    They don't need analizing.......as Gods creatures they just deserve to be cared for.
     
  3. sparkie

    sparkie Well-known Member

    that is something we can both agree upon...!!! it is the way the animal interprets an experience....how do people get phobias? or fears of flying etc...it is simular if not the same way a horse produces a simular or same behaviour....in the manner of bad behaviour....it doesnt need to have a bad or good experience to be be a good or bad behaved horse. it is the way the animal distorts that experience for themselves....yup we may be alot more intellectual and nope horse may not NEED to be analysed but isnt that what is in the fun of interacting with them...it for me is about having a horse be itself and about the person being themself also...not the behaviours beleifs in which they grew up stregthening with more and more simular and connecting experiences in thier own mind.

    glad we agree on your above quote...!;)
     
  4. Shiralee

    Shiralee Well-known Member

    So Hitler,Mussolini,Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Ted Bundy, were all just misunderstood and were actually in fact quite nice people?
    Of course not and what im saying is that not everything can be helped no matter how enthusiastic or blindly optimistic some one is, nor does it mean that none can be helped or that we should not be so obstinant in our beliefs that we will not try different methods or aproaches.
    People with brain injury either biological,congenital or acquired can of course still understand no one said they couldnt,depending on the area of the brain involved it is their ability to control impulse, modify behaviour or recognise apropriate responses which under certain circumstances results in tradgedy.
     
  5. sparkie

    sparkie Well-known Member

    this is what i am possibly not explaining well enough...was it not all about the beleif of what they beleived in that they decided to do and be who they were? everything we do and say and be is all about the beleif in that something we are being and doing right at this present time in the past and in the future...i beleive that the sun is going to come up tomorrow....and who doesnt?
    it is all about beleifs...i am not saying they are in the right or in the wrong i am only saying these behaviours are built upon beleifs which are processed through our interpretations which we experience and have an understanding of once we have deleted distorted and generalised those 32,000 bits of information per second through an experience....
    i suppose i am over my head thinking i can explain further in detail the reasoning or explaination of why we have people who rape, murder, are poor, money hungry, angry, depressed, happy etc....it is about the beleifs of experiences, and the behaviours built in and that of the surroundings of that person...think of it as "brain washing" only that the strongest influence in your life is YOU....! i brain wash myself with everything i do, and so do you..!!!

    it amazes me that we just simply rule out the bad and take the good...does anyone have an interest of just how we decided to really beleive this or that and how come we do this or that this way or that way... i am more like my father and mother than i am of my siblings..because they were the strongest influences in my life....NOW i understand I AM MY STRONGEST INFLUENCE IN MY LIFE....when people start realising that they are the cause of their own life that is when we will stop limiting ourselves in the simple and restricting beleifs that surrounds us in everything we do have hear see be feel and interpret....

    so all in all i am explaining here is that it is not about the particular trainer themselves nor the surroundings of that horse etc...it is all about how that horse etc interprets the experiences and the influences around it and how it builds up its behaviours from there on in... like it was mention before you say tomato i say tomaeto so to speak....

    i shall leave it at that...!
     
  6. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    Sparkie, maybe you should quit while you are ahead lol.

    When you go to deep you risk drowning lol
     
  7. sparkie

    sparkie Well-known Member

    lol :p i not the one drowning i am only helping those who are....lol

    yep but you are right i will stop there as it seems far to intellectual for this thread...

    good night sweet dreams lets hope the bed bugs dont bite...!
     
  8. Shiralee

    Shiralee Well-known Member

    Far too intellectual for this thread huh! What a condescending and patronising load of dribble! For some one who is claiming an intellectual superiority you sure have trouble with your spelling, composition and framework of the comments you have made!
    Suggest you climb down from your high horse before it bucks you off!! Naughty horsey!
     
  9. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    actually sparkie,
    i understand what you are saying, and agree with it
    horses can handle the same situations in completely different ways.
    they can be raised the same, with the same group of horses, in the same paddock, experience the same situations, one could take offense at a their first humans contact, whilst another might welcome it, one can be friendly and gentle, another can be frighten and threatning.

    it all depends on the individual, on how the INTERPRET the world around them.
    for example
    look how i responded to sparkies post, then look how shiralee responded
    one replied with offensive personal belittling
    one didnt
    we both read the same thing, but respond quiet differently
    cheers
     
  10. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Actually NO. Most criminals don't have a belief....they act on impulse with very little thought about consequences. And some have no idea why they did something and feel no remorse for doing it.

    So are you saying that their excuse is that they "believed" in what they were doing? And that they "believed" they were allowed to do what they did? And that they did wrong because of some bad personal experience so therefore they are not responsible?

    That is very strange that you group poor people in with murderers......and honestly lots of poor people cannot get ahead simply because they don't have an opportunity, they don't possess education, have no prospect of getting an education and have no access to funds to improve their situation. But you are saying that every person who "thinks" they should be wealthy can actually achieve it?

    I think your take on life is far too simplistic. To think that every person or horse is a product of their "experiences" is ridiculous, and then if they don't have an "experience" as an excuse for their behaviour, then they can blame the way they "interpret" things?.....then they can further excuse the outcome of their behaviour by saying that they "believed" in what they were doing?
    In the real world Sparkie some people and some horses are beyond help, and some don't deserve help, and to give them help is really not helping.....all it does is make the helper feel better!! There is a word for people who continually want to "help" wholley to service a weakness within themselves!

    Sparkie, I hope you never get to experience real life, real people, and horses that have real issues....because to burst that bubble you live in would be a terrible shame.....lolol
    and I'm certainly glad you aren't a criminal defence attorney!
     
  11. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Smash isn't horse training about getting a horse to be able to "interpret"/"react" only to the stimulii provided by the trainer? And isn't the way they "interpret" things actually beside the point when it comes to training?
    Every horse in every corner of the globe is different......but most of them are expected to "go" the same!....they are all pretty much going to have the same job description.....be with humans and get ridden.

    Horses have no power of logic.....they don't know that their behaviour influences their life........UNTIL they visit a trainer. At that point it really doesn't matter how they see things....they SHOULD just do what their rider is asking.
    Try telling a pro trainer that their horse is behaving badly because they are "interpretting" it wrong......a trainer is going to say "Yeah but I am teaching him how to do things my way"......"Because its my way or the highway".....AND not talking cruelty here either......we are talking about a horse having to be horse...how much of their own baggage they left behind is irrelevant because when they are trained they really have perimeters for the rest of their life.
    Training isn't about true compromise.......if it was there would be alot more half trained confused horses around....lololo True compromise means both parties are happy with an outcome.....a horse in work isn't getting a 50% concession....they are being taught to do 100% of what is asked of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  12. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    answering in capitals, not yelling.
     
  13. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I don't know how many pro-trainers you have been exposed to, but any 'pro-trainer' who cannot recognise a sore horse doesn't rate the title in my book!

    Every pro trainer I know can definately recognise a sore horse.
    I guess there are real pro trainers and trainers who think they are pro because they accept moeny for services.....sadly, like you many owner/riders are exposed to the later.....:)*

    Any owner who sends a horse to a trainer really doesn't care too much for the horses 'interpretation' of being trained?.....they only care about the horse being moulded to what they need in a horse.
    If a human sees a problem........then there is a problem.......I don't think the horse is trying too hard to convince them otherwise.
    This is just another example of people giving horses way too much credit and over analysing how their riding influences a horse.
    People ride. Horses are ridden. People need to give up the notion that EVERY speck of dust in the wind is the reason why their horse misbehaves.....lolol They also need to distance themselves emotionally from the animal and try being assertive. The horse only learns from leadership.....and you won't find that leadership quality in an owner/rider who is way too emotive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  14. Court Eagle

    Court Eagle Well-known Member

    This would happen to be the looooongest thread ive started, hehe*#)
     
  15. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    uummm ok
    deleted as it is not worth it
    cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  16. sparkie

    sparkie Well-known Member

    if the posts were actually read correctly they porbly would agree with at least some of it.... the sadest thing is that looking past the important stuff and shooting down things such as spelling is rediculous and prooves to me only what they want to see is available to them...how limiting is that? i do not want to get into a bickering i only want to help those out there wanting to find another avenue to understanding their horse and people around them and i do forget sometimes i have spent alot on doing the training for this and others havent...(not an english class obviously)

    those who are not constructive in their manner when replying are turely blinded by their own vision of limited thoughts...fair enough the ones who reply in disagreement in a constructive manner and still carries on the conversation...great that is only but a challenge for me to think on another level..and also those who reply back.!!!!! it is almost that those who are replying are those who can not really shoot me down with the proof of explanation and science behind THEIR reasoning.

    cheers everyone ;p
     
  17. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I'm sorry Sparkie but I don't see much science in your ideals. What they are are a set of your own ideals, ideas, theories and explanations. Everyone is entitled to those.
    But most of what you write is confusing......lolol And not through want of trying to understand it either!
    But not agreeing doesn't make someone:-
    In fact I for one, don't even know what being blinded by my own vision of limited thoughts is?????????

    I don't think any "science" is needed to disagree with your personal ideals....
    The gist of what you are saying is that people's actions and thoughts are a direct result of their experiences past, present and future. And that their behaviour can be excused or overlooked because they might have interpreted things wrong?
    That they are not accountable for their lack of learning it is the teacher to blame because they didn't communicate it correctly!
    Then you say that people should be masters of their own destiny?
    Confused............:(

    Horses are not people. They cannot be masters of their own destiny.....there finite place in the universe is that of an animal.......

    Has anyone ever wondered why "pro-trainers" can get the best from a horse?

    Answer: Because they remove the emotion from what they do and set about teaching the horse without the cloud of "fluffy and fuzzy".......the horse likes to be guided by a decisive and true hand and therefore responds with the same decisive and calm manner.....
    Get rid of the emotion and your horse will be the better for it. Actually that should read - get rid of the over-emotion.....

    Ever wondered why an owner does so much better when with a trainer?

    Answer: Because the trainer TELLS the owner what to do and they like to be guided and have the emotion removed FOR them! Like if the trainer says its OK then it must be OK....so they love the security of being the instigator and not the emotive thinker? They take the horse home and what happens many times......the emotions flood back and out goes the control and low and behold "the horse has a problem again"?

    Dur doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why the house of cards fell over.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  18. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    Bindi thankyou for writing what I dont have the time or really cant be bothered with, but you are 110% on the money.

    Sparks, you are way over thinking, and please, because we dont agree, dont lable us blind, over the years as I have matured, I have had to learn to eat a great deal of humble pie for having that exact same attitude.

    Just because you know something to be true today doesnt mean it will be true tomorrow.
     
  19. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Glad to have spared your fingers.....lolol ;)

    I just finished mowing the lawns before the next storm rolls in......as I went around and around all I could think of was horses on leather couches with a man showing flash cards, and a woman in a turban gazing into a crystal ball with fingers wiggling asking "What is it you don't like about your owner Billy"

    And my mind boggled.....aahahahaha:D*#)
     
  20. PetaBizz

    PetaBizz Well-known Member

    Let me just say one thing... This thread has entertained me for a long time.. Sharaway, you never fail to make my day, simply because you think very similar to me.. Must be that Pm in you!!!!

    Thanks Guys**)
     

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