Vicious kicker - need advise!

Discussion in 'Problem Horses' started by Kayla6304, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. Kayla6304

    Kayla6304 New Member

    Yes we have decided that the bandaging is to big of a task so we will just have to use proud aid and deal with a bigger scar then intended.
    Yes i know people are looking out for both the horses interest and myself so im sorry if i have replied in a unpleasent manner which wasnt my intention. Its just hard to get everything across in as little space as possible plus things come out wrong. Iv put the tieing to the neck which was actually was through the use of serving hobbles and not in a cruel way, and the rope from back to front leb is known as a side pull which i actually learnt and had recommended to me by a trainer. I would never put a horse in a dangerous or painful poisition. I will try get a picture up so it back up what i say a little better. I think it has also come across that she is a fearful and nasty horse which she most definitley is not. I can walk in the paddock and she follows me around like a puppy, walks to the gate to be caught, picks up all other 3 legs fine, has had a roller put on and didnt have a care in the world. The kicking is a learnt thing which she has picked up due to being impatient and sick of having her leg handled.. i can understand her kicking when she first cut it as it was sore but now there really is no reason for it other then bad behaviour. Thats why i wrote this thread to ask advice of people who have been in the same situation, as sugar's mum has. But i do appreciate the input from everyone :)
  2. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Righto.......first off. There are plenty of sedatives that can calm a horse but not completely knock it out. Some in combination work better than others on different individuals. I've sedated more horses myself, and been with the vet while they sedate a horse more times than I can remember. I've NEVER seen a horse fail to be sedated. Even exptremely anxious and pumped up horses will surcome to sedation eventually. And they won't be anaethetised.

    Proud flesh itself has developing nerve endings. The dermis is very sensitive.
    A pressure bandage to inhibit it from overgrowth is great.....but trust me, its sensitive to touch and hosing, from both a dermal aspect AND a retained memory aspect.

    But good luck with it. Hope things go well for you.
  3. Macchiato

    Macchiato Well-known Member

    Do you have acces to a crush. Perhaps one of your neighbours have one you could use.
  4. Kayla6304

    Kayla6304 New Member

    Evp thanks again. You are probably right. Everything i have gone off has been off vet advise, intruction or what iv seen and when we took her to the vets to have the lump got of she was given 2 different sedatives to which she was that drowsy she couldnt hold her head up and we were also holding up one of her front legs while the vet was working on her while she was in a crush and she was still kicking. The actual vet was the one who said she almost had to drop her, lucky she got what she needed done between kicks. She also said that she shouldnt have much sensation in where it is but im sure when it has swelled up then yes it will be sore.
  5. South Boulder Boy

    South Boulder Boy Well-known Member

    I'm wondering if, re: sedation, you are bringing te horse out of it unintentionally? The thing with most sedatives is they calm the horse, the more you give the more 'asleep' the horse goes. I've worked with alot of ace and short acting. I'm guessing you would've used short acting or this situation. The thing with this sedative is the horse is never actually 'asleep' and should still be treated as though they are fully awake. It's very easy to bring a horse out of sedation with a fright or pain etc. The horse, though calm and sleepy like, is still alert to his surroundings. If they are suddenly startled or frightened they snap out of sedation incredibly fast, no doubt in preparation for 'flight' to save themselves. The same goes for pain. You can't think oh the horse is sedated I can do as I please, you still need to work with tact as though they are awake ad alert fully. The other thing is in my experience short acting makes mares in particular more grumpy and more likely to kick. The mare whose never raised a leg at anyone does so under short acting.

    I doubt this is of any help its just when I read your posts I'm not reading te sedative doesn't work I'm reading the horse is being brought out of it. Yes some horses are hard to sedate, we had a particular Helenus who had to be sedated for the dentist and vet a few times. He'd still roar and come out of sedation if he decided he didn't like what was going on. In the end it was decided the sedation didn't have any effect and to do with out.

    You also say its a learnt thing, for future refrence you need to pick up on the threats and tell the horse off (a deep growl will do the trick) before they have the chance to follow through. Picking it up before it becomes a kicking habit will stop the issue you have now. And when it comes to kicking I'm never nice baby you through your issues type. Yeah the wound might have hurt to change a dressing on, yeah horse might be impatient and frustrated but you wouldn't want to bloody kick me (and usually those are the exact words they get haha).
  6. Kayla6304

    Kayla6304 New Member

    South boulder boy you are probably right about the sedation thing. Although i cant say i know much about it as it was all done by the vet, i couldnt even say what she gave her or what dosage. She also didnt give use any to use at home as she didnt think it really would have enough effect. And oh shes reprimanded when she kicks or goes to kick but it seems to not bother her any more. Shes just that hell bent on not letting anyone touch that leg! And about 4 months ago we trimmed and filed that exact back leg with no worries :/ i dont expect her to go back to loving the leg handled but i would prefer if she didnt try kill you every time you even look at it
  7. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    Sigh... I feel your pain :( and I know what it's like to have a young horse that needs treatment and just will not for love nor money stop fighting you.

    The treatment plan you choose is at the end of the day up you. My filly cut the back of her pastern a few months ago and the vets were adamant that it needed bandaging and prednoderm etc... I went with my gut and the fact I know my pony. No bandage, no prednoderm just what I knew to be the right thing for her. Cut is healed and now we wait to see if she grows hair (god I hope so!)

    As far your filly goes please believe me when I say I have been in your shoes. Mine used to be a nightmare! And it didn't make a difference if you drugged her, twitched her, hobbled her or put her on the floor... which I might add she has done herself on more than one occasion!

    What I have learned from this pastern issue is that I was so hell bent on making sure she didn't scar that I put so much emotional energy into her leg that if I even bent down to look at it she'd go nuts at me. After a few weeks of going through what you're going through I thought bugger it! If it scars it scars! I've gone back to creating a trusting relationship with her that is now magical ;) and if I want to look at the pastern or put some hair regenerator on it she's 90% happy to let me do it.

    I guess what I'm saying is it's about trust as with all animals. If you really don't need to dress it and you can take your time then do so. If you've been dealing with her in a shed or stable do it somewhere else so the trauma memory is not a factor. Go slow make her feel safe, don't cause pain where there is already pain. If it hurts then tell her "I know it hurts" and be sympathetic. If it were a one year old child you wouldn't force them you'd comfort them.

    Too often horses are not given the benefit of the doubt, they know what's best for them but sometimes they just don't know if they can trust it will be ok. I had to put eye ointment in my little ones... well not so little now... eye this morning and she protested, I took my time, lots of sympathy, lots of love and she just plonked her head in my arms and let me do it even though it hurt and she didn't really want too she knew she needed too ;)

    The injury aside go build a relationship with her no point her thinking every time something 'needs doing' it's got to be stressful and painful.

    (happy for all the "stuff the sooky la la c**p" comments to come flying in but this is what I have gone through and how I dealt with it... and don't get me wrong sedation and twitching has it's place but I don't see the value in teaching someone so young to resent the human hand)
  8. Kayla6304

    Kayla6304 New Member

    Oh yay im so glad someone has finally been in my shoes and gets it :) as much as i appreciate every ones input, i think unless you have had to deal with it yourself and no the frustration of it then its hard to make a realistic comment on the issue. It sounds like you had the exact same problem as me! I have decided to leave it un-bandaged and deal with the scars later, i just need to re-build that trust that i used to have with that leg :)
  9. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    Ignore the leg ;) reconnect with the pony :)

    Be sure though that any behaviour that you wouldn't accept from the older horses is not tolerated from her. Mine used to like to throw her legs out in the paddock (never aimed for you but was in your general direction) I went from ignoring it to smacking her with my hand to giving her a blinking good bop on the bum with a whip... she doesn't do it anymore ;)

    Hang in there, get to know her, find her favourite scratch spot, when mine gets upset or worried about something I go for the scratch spot, must release some endorphins or something because 9 times out of 10 she comes right back down to earth and says "ok what was the problem again".

    As hard as it can be for "Us Humans" sometimes we need to acknowledge that the horses flight response has taken over and (so long as it's not life threatening) there is no point forcing the issue... walk away, come back another day, start again.

    No true horse / human relationship was ever built without there first being trust.
  10. Sugar's Mum

    Sugar's Mum Gold Member

    the world will not end if the scar is bigger then it could ahve been. Good decision.

    Back to the sedation issue.

    There are a wide range of sedatives on the market and different vets will use different ones.

    Some are incredibly useful at giving a fast sedation that can be reversed (Rompun) however this drug is also incredibly danger ous because the animals can come out of the sedation, attack the handlers and then go back to almost comatous again. I have seen it happen in a dog (It was vicious, muzzeled sedated with Rompun mucous membrains going blue so I removed the muzzel, called teh vet, he lifted the lip the dog bite clean through his fingernail. In another case a vet sedated a colt with rompun nice sedation, colt came out of it and struck teh vet on teh head I think he got a hair line fractire to his skull if I remember rightly.

    Sedatives are a wonderful tool if used carefully but they can be very very dangerous.
  11. venruebin1

    venruebin1 New Member

    To treat the leg use yellow lotion and then cover it with tuff rock poultice. The yellow lotion can be sprayed on and then you can put the poultice on. The yellow lotion will ease the pain in the leg and ease the redevelopment of proud flesh. Then you can put the poultice (looks like mud) in your hand and run your hand down the leg until you can put it on.

    The advantage of this is the horse will start to get used to handling of her legs. I had a very feral mare who cut her leg and this treatment helped no end with the handling. Try to do this once a day if possible. If you can hose it off before you treat it, it will help (the hose will help with settling her leg handling as well but not essential). I did mine at dinner time so she had something else to focus on and this meant I didn't have to have anyone hold her and that reduced her stress as well.
  12. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Most vets use Dormosedan. Quick acting and precise for bodyweight and wears off really well.

    We'll be branding a few this weekend and will be sedating. Using the paste the only draw back is that it really needs 30-40 minutes for its full effect. So there will be 4 little ones nice and relaxed.....lolol. One also has a bandage too which will come off. She has a knock on/a beesdick above her coronet that needed 4 stitches...she didn't like bandage changes either and the vet came to do the first one under iv sedation. Hopefully the paste will be enough for a big day of bandage, branding and feet done too.....lolol.

    A calm baby is a baby that doesn't scare itself and make issues out of nothing. Lets the necessary things get done and learns that the sun is still shining when its finished. No one wins if horses flip themselves around, do more damage (open up wounds which is something I've seen many times), and injure or frustrate handlers. I just won't do it anymore.
  13. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Little Bean, I think I took the opposite attitude to you when Moet ripped her leg open. She was just a yearling and we had some very bad thoughts about how it would end, so I was rather blas? about emotional involvement. I just went systematic :eek: But, 1st bandage change she was a right b|tch. 2nd bandage change, over to Windal Park, into the Crush for the little witch. She was fine after that and wouldn't even lift the leg :) I think a practical, has-to-be-done attitude goes a long way.

    Yellow lotion was awesome :)

    Kayla can you share photos?
  14. Kayla6304

    Kayla6304 New Member

    Iv got a good photo to share but have no idea how to do it haha so some instructions would be handy :) ta
  15. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    lol Wattle if I'm right from what I've read over the years you've bred a few? This was my first and purpose bred for me from a very special mare... needless to say my heart ruled from day dot and the little monster took full advantage ;)

    One day I just went enough is enough child! I'm the boss but if you're nice about it I'll take 51% and you can have 49% push it and you'll get 10%... things are very different now and although I'm protective and don't want her marked I just have to accept that what will be will be.

    Oh and had a look tonight... hair is growing back on part of the pastern wound :D keeping everything crossed for the rest of the area!
  16. katers93

    katers93 Well-known Member

    Haven't read every single comment but have been in these situations enough times. Regarding the scar...a big scar is not just ugly. I would be applying yellow lotion daily and trying to reduce the proud flesh and scarring as much as possible. Having a bigger wound makes this area more vulnerable to further damage (e.g. may bleed easily if knocked) and depending on the area it may make locomotion more difficult, put strain on tendons, ligaments, muscles etc. I personally apply the lotion and if the horse kicks I hold the lotion on the wound (while holding the leg) while she tries to kick. Usually this works well because I stop once the leg goes down and have usually got enough lotion on by then and I can stop. Perhaps if you feel the situation is dangerous you could try the idea of sedatives to minimise your horses reaction to these situations...
    As someone who has been in your situation with injury but not so severely with behavioural issues I would suggest making recovery your primary concern, but avoid escalating the behavioural issues (I.e you may want to use sedatives at this stage).
  17. nklpark

    nklpark Well-known Member

    You haven't given any of information about where or how bad the injury just that her behaviour is appalling. Will she sound after it's all healed? What do you want do to with her in the future? does the scarring matter?

    Lots of people have offered some very good advice on wound care and behavioural issues. Proud aid would be my wound option, unbandaged, it last for a few days, only paint it on the proud flesh not the sensitive wound edges where new skin is growing. As for the behaviour also lots of good advice.

    The other thing to consider is how would your loved ones feel if you or your Auntie were injured or killed? you sound like you putting yourself in an awful amount of danger ... i'd be considering if she was worth the effort ? while we all say yes my horse is, i'd do anything to save it and trust me i've been there and the vet bills to prove it, last year i had to make that horrible decision about a yearling filly who repeatly injured herself, she was a awful to treat and progressively got worse, so you even looked like going near her leg she'd step towards you and try and kick, her last injury was quite bad, wire cut to back leg, exposed bone & severed tendon so it had to be bandaged. It would have required long term care and she may have never come sound to ride, scarring wouldn't have bother me but i did have to weigh up whether she was good enough become a broodmare and was her temperament something i wanted to breed with and was it a factor in why she kept injuring herself. She was PTS.
  18. Arnie

    Arnie Gold Member

    Who cares about scars in this situation. Get it healed and finished!

    I of all people have learnt that scars don't matter ;).
  19. Go the Distance

    Go the Distance Well-known Member

    If the kicking is that bad get someone who knows how to leg restrain safely and restrain a front leg so you can treat the back leg.

    I have done this with yearlings before when I have been on my own. I got stuck out at Norseman with two injured yearlings needing leg dressings from being chased by dogs and I front leg restrained both of them. When your on your own it is go hard or go home. I use an old stirrup leather and fold thier foreleg up to front leg restrain. They soon work it out.

    Also I agree with Arnie if it is all too hard and dangerous just let it scar up.

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