TBs..shoes on or off??

Discussion in 'Horse Management' started by teddy2shoes, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Do not twist my words! I never stated any of those things in my previous post!

    But reading all your subsequent replies, you seem to twist everyone's words to say what you want them to say.

    And i never knew i wasn't allowed to debate without being stuck with a lable. Maybe i joined the wrong forum. The title says 'Discussion Forums'.
    According to my Oxford Dictionary:
    "debate; a formal discussion. To discuss, to consider."
     
  2. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    hey sim, your situation sounds very similair to my old TB. Lots and lots and lots of movement was the key to his feet coming good.

    Just thought I'd drop in to let you know RR, i've just come inside from a fantastic canter up my rocky, gravelly, hilly firebreak on my barefoot (previously shod) horse, who coincidentally just had a trim yesterday. She didn't miss a beat ;) teeheee...will let you know when I'm free for a ride. :)*
     
  3. Sim

    Sim Well-known Member

    Thanks B & T, does sound like a similar situation doesn't it? He's coming along in leaps and bounds, even my non horsey OH has noticed the improvement in his feet! The proof is in the pudding, as they say, the thing is I am genuinely interested in knowing what RR would have done differently in my situation, given that I had two different farriers guiding me before I decided to go barefoot with Merls.

    So RR, now that the terror has gone to bed, i can post for you (unfortunatley can't get the photos off my other computer as its a laptop and at my mums #:))

    Anyway, I will describe to you as best I can:

    My tb had:

    Bad things:
    -under run heels, long toes, landing toe first
    -very very flat soles - touching ground when shoe was removed
    -hooves wouldn't hold shoes for more than 2 - 4 weeks, hoof wall constantly breaking away, the front hooves were worse than the back hooves
    - When he would lose a shoe he would be extremely tender on that hoof, on all surfaces

    Good things:

    -wide, healthy frogs
    -heels not contracted
    -no sign of any disease, thrush, white line or anything like that
    - no signs of absessing or bruising

    Advice given by farriers:
    - Change to racing plates (aluminium shoes)
    - Change to smaller nails with the racing plates
    - Keep him off the ultra rocky parts of my block
    - Keep shoes on because this horse will definitely not cope with rocky ground
    - Put bell boots on
    - Interesting both of the farriers told me that any type of supplementaition (Biotin etc) would be a waste of my money as his feet were simply too far gone.

    Advice given by vet:
    - Keep shoes on him, he'll be sound until he's sound then he won't be sound anymore - as you can see, very helpful, I've since changed vets!

    I did all of the above. Nothing changed, his feet still wouldn't hold shoes. It got to the point where my farrier was getting fed up and mentioned that it wasn't worth his time anymore.

    Interested to hear what you think!
     
  4. corporate pride

    corporate pride Well-known Member

    i know u asked for RR but for the sole thing i can help
    make something like a welly boot outta flexi rubber stuff and put on hooves and fill with water, tie/wrap/attach to leg so won't come off and leave overnight in a yard. then get farrier to cut out as much sole as he can (without overdoing it) and a bit every trim til it's easy to cut out and concavity is forming, keep up the maintanence on his sole til it "coins" little round things on his sole of shedding hoof, that's good. took 3 years for mine to get it.
    check out ozzie's feet, this is what u want :)
    [​IMG]
     
  5. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    I am not twisting your words, because they are mine and highlight the typical barefoot arguments that arise in any barefoot debate....and that is exactly what I am doing...debating :))
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  6. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    What I think is that you have been given some pretty poor advice. Post some photos up to give me a bit more of a look.
     
  7. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Oh dear I wouldnt recommend that, is this what you did or what you are thinking of doing?
     
  8. SSAPH

    SSAPH Well-known Member

    Hello have read all the posting here which make for very interesting ready. I am not looking at getting into a debate, but merely to outline what I have found with my horses.

    My endurance horse wears shoes from about March through to November, he spends his summer in a gravel paddock and doing all of his summer prep work in the hills of Gidge with no shoes on. He has never been tender or lame when the shoes come off.

    While I would eventually love to ride him barefoot or in boots, I am still looking at how boots hold up to competing at faster speeds over 160km. I know that many people are using boots & or barefoot, but not necessarily at the speed that I want to be travelling at to qualify for international competiton. Also I am concerned that he would wear his feet down too quickly and not grow the hoof quick enough - he wears heavy shoes down to paper thin in less than 4 weeks.

    I have another horse who has absolute shocking leg and foot conformation - he grew up in a swamp area of Serpentine, and came to us as a 9yr old to with each foot a completely differnet shape (one front foot was a triangle) courtesy of the owner doing the feet themselves #( to live on gravel. After 6mths of regular trimming (not barefoot) he was ok to walk on a sand paddock, but could not handle the gravel paddocks (not big gravel rocks) and certainly could not walk around the arena without hobbling.

    Eventually we relented and put front shoes on him rather than boots due to the irregular shape of his feet. As soon as the shoes were on he could happiiy trot and canter both in the paddock and arena but also walk on the bitumen road. Over the past 4 yrs if he has lost a shoe he has been lame immediately, but when shoe is replaced sound again.

    So after 4 yrs of having front shoes on 24x 7, I have taken the had his frront shoes off for the past 6weeks to see how he goes for a while, as structually his foot has improved slightly. I have moved him into the paddock with the least amount of rocks and am monitoring how he goes over the next couple of weeks to see if he can handle being ridden barefoot and if not can I get boots that are going to suit his feet and the work he does? I guess I will have to wait and see.

    My other 2 horses have always been barefoot (regular trimming not barefoot) they both work in the hills of Gidge and have had no issues at all.
     
  9. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    All sounds very well managed, you trim, shoe, boot a horse depending on the necessity to do it.

    I think that may answer your questions in terms of the training required for international level endurance.
     
  10. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    OK I really have given up now since RR YOU were the one who originally stated that a barefoot horse that needs to wear boots was a "failed" barefoot horse.. and now you are accusing me of doing exactly that.
    I have been here before -though not on this forum I have to say - an attempt to post open minded debate gets me (and others) accused of "barefoot propaganda".. I now reckon RR is doing this for the hell of it rather than out of any genuine desire to see debate and to actually learn anything, and I for one have no wish to take this any further (the brick wall is just a bit too brickish for me this time).
    RR I don't think I need a lecture on the different types of shoes - as a vet I've seen that many it's not funny. I've also seen horses shod with wedges, heart bars and God knows what else and written off by vets and farriers as incurably lame come good with remedial barefoot trimming. But where's the point in bringing that up - apparently it's just propaganda.
    Have fun with your shod horse RR and I'll have fun with my barefoot one. Sim, B&T, SSAPH, Cornflower, annd Corporate Pride congrats on the open minds and I wish you all well with your barefoot, part shod, booted, or whatever WORKS BEST FOR THE HORSE horses. If you'd like a link to a forum with good barefoot advice and an advice section with a well known barefoot trimmer PM me and I'll let you know.
     
  11. corporate pride

    corporate pride Well-known Member

    so what do u recommend?? this is actually what i witnessed by a qualified farrier. should u suggest that this horse remain on it's soles and flat footed?? how else to u get ride of old unsheded sole?? just curious
     
  12. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Never said failed, just said that a horse that needs boots to do its job is not a true example of a barefoot horse!

    Ok, I am closed minded because I believe a horse's hooves should be maintained in a way that is appropriate for the welfare of the horse in the activity that it does or the conformation that it has or the medical problem it suffers. I believe in shoes and no shoes.....I just can counter any "shoes" are detrimental to a horses health debate!

    I dont do it for the hell of it, I do it for fairness to the horse.

    Yep, it sure is and there are a hell of a lot more horses out there that have been resurrected with horse shoes and hence why your profession utilises and supports the skill of a farrier throughout the world!

    Yes, I will have fun with my horses whether they are shod or unshod or that fashionable word "barefoot" ;)

    And yes, if anyone needs advice regarding hoof care that might require more skills than a trim, pm me and I will give you a great farrier site ;)

    I still really think you should pm me and organise a ride!! :) Come on AnnaE and B&T it will be fun!!!! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  13. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Simple you pare out the sole with a hoof knife :confused:
     
  14. Sim

    Sim Well-known Member

    Yer, I am out of here too Anna E.

    As I keep stating, I am COMPLETELY DELIGHTED with my barefoot trimmer and my horse's progress!!!! I have done my research and am in the hands of an excellent professional whi is doing a fantastic job.

    I was simply interested (in the name of healthy debate and exchange of ideas) to hear some ideas as to how RR would have treated my horses problems, had he been in a similar situation, given that he is completely against barefoot. ????? I am not after specific advice, simply some ideas as to what continued shoeing could have offered a horse that had my horses problems.

    In my search for civilised debate and opinion, I feel that I am being led on a wild goosechase - RR is just in it for the piss take value in my opinion. I have given him heaps of oppurtunity to state some of his ideas but he can't/or refuses to come up with any ideas/answers.

    Over it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  15. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Sim, post some photos like I asked!?? :confused:

    Also, please point out to me where I have said that I am against "barefoot"??? I am not ;) A "barefoot"/unshod horse is 100% fine in my books (as long as it is in no discomfort), but "barefoot" propaganda needs highlighting.....two very different things :)

    It is a civilised debate, it is no wild goosechase just some typical barefoot propaganda put to rest.....and put up those pictures - before and now would be supedooperr!! :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  16. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    Game, Set, Match LOL
    cheers
     
  17. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse Active Member

    Ouch.

    Steps away slowly and quietly on tender feet....
     
  18. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    Thanks :)

    I have already had my horse diagnosed by a very good vet and am confident it is a correct diagnosis. I just would like to know what a good farrier does for this type of horse? If you "build" a shoe how is that addressing the problems in the foot itself? Can a farrier work with the horse's feet in such a way that one day it will be sound without an artificially built up heel (ie. normal shoes or unshod)? I don't know the anwer's to these questions that is why I am asking. I want to learn what can be best done for my horse.

    My horse had aluminum wedge shoes on both fronts for a year and then we tried going back to normal shoes. He unfotunately was not completely sound in the normal shoes... so I decided to try a trimmer that was more interested in changing the shape of his hooves (hence the "barefoot" trimmer).
     
  19. corporate pride

    corporate pride Well-known Member

    ok, that's just what i said but i didn't use the word pare instead i used cut.

    pare: to trim off outside, excess, or irregular part of
    cut: in logic, the removal of an intermediate and irrelevant proposition
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  20. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Firstly, when you had the x-rays done to diagnose the pedal bone rotation what degree was the pedal bone out of alignment? Also was the horse sound in the wedges?
     

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