So?. what is wrong with this yearling? it SHOULD be obvious to all?...

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by manocaaron, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Fabulous the breeds "dynamic versatility" has produced a class of horse that is useless for riding and lucky to stay paddock sound with out drugs that is supposed to be the best example of the breed lol.
    I am so glad that these people know what they are doing to improve the breed by stuffing it up.:D
  2. Brucey

    Brucey New Member

    EVP you really have nothing of substance to add do you?
    just thinly disguised patronizing useless comments.;)

    I do know some eastern states AQHA judges actually, and they have similar concerns. It is ultimately an issue the AQHA needs to address, and what makes you think no one is writing letters or raising concerns directly with the association??
    You assume way too much sweetheart.:rolleyes:

    Ive raised a number of issues with the AQHA and will continue to do so, including the registering of FM stock that violate the rules of the studbook, and how this has been allowed to occur...not that its any of that is your business, nor am I required to give details of my experience, accomplishments in the show ring, or breeding success's to have a valid opinion, wev'e been there done no I wont cater to you or your criteria to have an opinion, and I could care less if you "sit up and listen" to my views..why should I? why should anyone?? who are YOU??
    It might suprise you to know that this isn't about YOU, so unless you want to participate constructively, why post?
    We all know the answer to that.;)

    I have been involved in this breed for over 30 years, and have and will continue to voice my opinion against selfish, destructive and downright inhumane breeding practices that serve to do nothing other than line the pockets of egotistical human beings who have no remorse in destroying a breed I love and value.
    You continue to defend their right to do so, and say its ok cause they are 'out there doing it'. #(

    Angimac that is exactly what they were intended for! **)
    Sadly this has changed.
    The AQHA should do a serious cull of the studbook, both here and in the US.
    None of the horses pictured on those websites meet the standard of the breed, nor do they have any attributes of a true Quarter Horse.

    Edited to add, I'm happy to have my horses critiqued, especially their performance records, how bout you EVP? I'm sure you'll be in that? Im a actually a bit of a fan of a couple of yours.
    What about you Coliban? Willing to put yours up for critique? I mean it's just the bleatings of insignificant forum members who will see so why not?:)*
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  3. Serious

    Serious New Member

    Wow! I think there is more hatred here for each other than for any of the worst conformed horses in the world?? I know no-one here, but seeing as Brucey uses a cutting horse as her avatar, I'm guessing that breeding for conformational correctness is paramount to you? Even though we know cutting horse folk just love a bit of cow hock in their horses, don't mind a head like a robbers dog, or a neck that is as wide as the rest of the horse. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging the cutters, but you all keep crapping on about how we could all get out in 1970 on the one horse and do it all. Yeah, we could. 45 bloody years ago!! Things change. Most cutters now wouldn't even make qh rego cause they're under height, let alone compete in a pleasure, hunter, reining class etc.

    There is hardly a horse in the qh world that could do it all, but there are horses that can and do halter at high level, and then go on to win under saddle in pleasure, hunter, trail classes. Try and take that backwards - there wouldn't be half a dozen pleasure or hunter bred horses that could halter as a baby and be competitive. The reason for this branching out is that the industry has grown so much over the last few decades, and people like to specialise. And so, by breeding a great hunter horse in 1975 to another great hunter horse (even though they were MUCH more your average qh type) we have today the hunter horse that looks more like a tb than a tb! Every branch of the qhs should have a good long hard look at themselves. There are pleasure horses that need to have injections in their hocks every month to keep them going. Oh, and cutters need them too. Oh, yeah, reiners as well. The AQHA and the AmQHA will NOT be going back to the one versatile horse they had 50 years ago, it ain't ever gonna happen, so you can hope and pray all you like, and whinge and moan, but what it boils down to is this - it must come from the membership first. The judges won't change their tune if the Associations don't tell them to. And the Associations don't care unless enough of their membership make written, viable complaints that can be backed up by research. If YOU want the good old all round versatile qh, go out and find one, there are plenty. Just don't expect to win anything at National level.

    It's no good saying "I don't like it, they don't look like they used to, I'm guessing they'll have hock/back/whatever issues in the future". No Association gives a hoot what you don't like, however they DO care for the welfare of the horses (believe it or not).

    If you don't like halter horses, and I do (but not the one at the beginning of this thread - just not my type) then don't go scouring the internet for pictures of them to badmouth. If you want to do something constructive about it, blabbing on and tearing each other down on a public forum isn't going to get the attention of any Association. Either find some research to back up your theories, or get your judges ticket.

    Oh, and the reason we have halter horses? Many people don't - or can't - ride, for many reasons, but we'd sure like to be competitive in the ring. These horses are our chance to win a National title. You don't like it? Don't do it, don't watch, don't read results, don't go trolling through old results pages for pics of what you don't like. I mean SERIOUSLY people go bash on the Tennessee Walking Horse people, now THERE is an Association with some issues!!!
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  4. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    The conformation standards are set out by the breed association and the halter horses that are winning at a high level are not meeting the standards that are rather clearly out lined.

    Maybe the halter ring needs to set out their own conformation standards so the rest of us can understand what they are breeding for and judging on ?

    The walking horses have their issues, but for the most part take the stupid stacks off and the horses have quite qood conformation in terms of the back legs.
  5. Serious

    Serious New Member

    Really??? Then you're not looking at the same pics of them that I am??? Let's talk arabs shall we, and the conformational standard of excellence - compare the standard with those in the ring. And god forbid lets talk tbs - I tried to look for a beautifully conformed tb stallion to put over a qh mare for some outcross blood, and LORDY they are awful!!! Prob just one or two in the country conformationally correct, but oh yeah, they can run which is ALL that matters. I just can't see why qhs have been singled out, the most popular breed in the world is gonna have all kinds, good ones, bad ones, crappy legs, feet, necks, shoulders, and on and on. And SO IS EVERY OTHER BREED ffs, so how about we either barrack for the welfare of ALL horses conformationally, instead of singling one breed out and bagging the crap out of it. There are some damned nice halter bred qhs out there, that go well under saddle. They're not all going to do it, heck some of those BRED to go well under saddle go around like a heap of shit.
  6. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Brucey you are pushing the same old barrow......:lol: The old debate about QH's deviating from "the standard", and you know what.....thats exactly what it is.....OLD. Anyone listening to you - NO. Why? Because the QH is doing just fine with the specialisation of disciplines. The breed suits anyone and everyone. Even those who still prefer the bulldog type.

    Surely you don't want me to list everything MY horses have done and won and produced. Really? It's a long list in open national company and would bore people to tears. As for critiqueing them. They probably don't have perfect conformation but their achievements speak for them. In fact I bet if I got serious I could pick some flaws with the girls.....

    Glad you have some judge friends. Now OM and Maccaroon can say stuff about that too. :rolleyes: While they are lamenting the ruination of the breed that they participate in, my friends actually have high hopes and expectations for the breed and the association's future. They are doing what they can in those programs I mentioned. I hope Australia follows with the same amount of effort and actions. As for your letter writing, good for you. Keep sending them. I'm sure they are taking just the right amount of time to act on them and respond. I'm confident that the AQHA here answers their members.

    I also have welfare concerns for horses that are bred without purpose and by those with little thought for use, bloodlines or conformation. Sadly, the horseworld is FULL of people doing just that. Sader still is that it happens in all breeds and isn't confined to the QH.

    I know what you have done with the horses you own or have owned. I'm glad that you have a captive and dazzled audience here. Though I always question how and why some people are so easily impressed with so little.

    While you continue to beat the sad, tired old drum about the terrible way the QH has evolved and changed and gone to the pack, let me assure you that it will power on without you, though I have very little to do with breeding solely for the QH market. Can things be improved in the breed and in the official way it's run - YES. I hope that members can vote for the right people to run their association. I know the AmQHA has some awesome people on the Board and I know that everything I have said about judging is definately on their radar.

    As for you popping your good self back in here like an avenging angel, well it shows just how stale and out of touch you are. Not to mention stuck in an obsessive rut. While I'm feeding my pack of champion grassmowers I'll think of you and all the champions you've had. :}
  7. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Serious, the only reason that this topic gets posts is because people like OM and Brucey have personal issues with some breeders. Nothing more nothing less. It wouldn't matter how many times I posted about associations being proactive about judging standards and educational programs, the same dog do-do will still come back. Because those posters have serious issues.

    They don't care about the "welfare" issue of horses, they care about arguing for the sake of it with breeders and showies they have 'mysterious over the computer issues with'. Conformational problems with ALL equines does not factor into their debate. It's not about that. It's about swapping venon. Jealously is the only reason........tall poppy syndrome at it's best.

    If you can't compare or beat 'em.......just bag 'em. Luckily the targets of this fixation have thick skins insulated by the successes of their horses, otherwise the constant whippings might sting........:lol:
  8. Serious

    Serious New Member

    well I - as a halter horse breeder - take serious offence to the slandering of breeders when we are all thrown in the one basket. Not all of us want post hocked small footed horses, but as you said in a previous post we have to work with what we've already got mare and stallion wise in the industry, and it takes a good few years to even start to turn it around. Ah well, lucky I have a thick skin too I guess lmfao!
  9. manocaaron

    manocaaron Well-known Member

    I have one simple question here.

    Who here dislikes the posty hocked over muscled type that we are talking about?

    EVP, you said you didn't like the one in the original pic,
    Serious, you also agreed that you didn't like it.
    THATS the type this thread is about. not other types. JUST THAT TYPE.


    If the AQH is a versatile breed (as you stated EVP) then that means that any ONE specimen of he breed SHOULD be able to lend itself to any of the activities that make them a versatile breed in the first place. If they need to breed different types with different capabilities then the breed is not versatile is it? Obviously some within the breed will lend themselves to one activity more than another but as a whole the conformation should be correct in all.

    kind of like saying a Holden is a versatile brand of car but you might need a sedan, a van, a 4wd and a ute to get that versatility.

    You say no one is listening to Brucey! I think there are a few who are, I am. Although this old forum doesn't have a whole lot of currently active members right now, there seems to be a few more 'likes' for her comments rather than yours ';' go figure!!!

    Serious no one has thrown all the breeders into one basket at all. we're simply discussing one trend that seems to be, very obviously, ruining the breed in the eyes of those who do look at conformation.

    Oh and I think that an awful lot of the Arabs shown at Halter do manage to stay within the realms of the AHSA standard of excellence, yes there are deviations with the trend for more extreme heads than are necessary but for the most part the classes are well balanced with well conformed exhibits that are much more versatile than those seen in the AQH halter classes.

    Oh and Serious, I think Halter classes for any breed began as method of showing stallions off to prospective breeders, of showing a mares line and the foals that both the stallions and the mares have produced so that prospective breeders can see them and decide the lines they want, a way for breeders to advertise their progeny and their studs and show off the geldings that excel as an all round representative of he breed. I don't think the need for halter classes began simply because some folks didn't like riding.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  10. Macchiato

    Macchiato Well-known Member

    I think they are referring to competing at an elite level.
  11. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Remembering the photo posted is doctored.

    This doctored picture is NOT indicative of every halter QH internationally. It might represent SOME ill-bred ill conformed horses but not every single one. Therefore singling halter QH's out as all being bad examples of the breed is idiotic.

    There is no argueing. Brucey introduced that a halter horse is not indicative of "the real QH horse". Others are merely correcting that narrow view by stating that everyone acknowledges that there are problems with bad breeding and inconsistent judging. I also mentioned it happens in all breeds and this is an important welfare concern. I also stated a mind numbing 100 times that executives in associations are aware of it and are addressing it to the best of their ability.

    The studbook includes horses of varying types that perform various disciplines. A reiner is different to a cutter to a heeler or header or barrel horse.....because they have been bred to enhance different inherent traits. This is specialised breeding whereby certain genetics are used to increase or decrease characterists. More speed, less height, more height, less sting, more cow. THIS is what versatile means in the breed.

    Yes & No. Longer rein, more speed more cow ect ect might not suit the purpose of a halter horse. Same breed but different wants and needs for the discipline. Yet those traits are things that are imperative for other arenas. Conformation is subjective to the discipline. Reiners and cutter don't mind some cowhock because it helps with stop and turn. I'll mention that Standardbreds are the same. It's not great conformationally, but its what works for the discipline.

    The reason there are so many different types of cars is because people have different wants and needs. That they can find one that suits them in one brand is exactly what some horse breeds are like. There are Holden utes, 4WD's, vans and family cars. In the QH there are different types within the one breed. The are critiqued similiarly but different (you can get a copy of judging methodology online). The are judged on the characterists that allow them to perform the discipline they were bred for.

    I'd say people are actually thinking that the original pic is the core of the discussion. The pic is fake. F.A.K.E Someone has manipulated it so that they can bang the drum of "halter QH's are bad examples of the breed". It's a no brainer that some people might confuse the motives. This is not a welfare discussion. It's a witch hunt using mis-information and very tired old gripes. As for why someone "likes" a post.....have you read the thread on 'sheep following sheep'? Explains everything. LOLOL.

    Actually I think you'll find that OM DID tar everyone with the same brush by the very fact that she posted supposed stud and show results and maintained that these were indictivie of the breeding practises of every halter horse breeder and indicative of the judging standards of every show judge.

    So if someone started a thread saying that halter Arabs were ill bred and ill conformed horses and that the heads were are deviating from the standard you would agree or disagree? Wouldn't you acknowledge that some might be but many many are not.

    Halter horse classes were done to expose the breed to the public. So people could see up close what a horse looked like. Yes. Horses also pulled carts and harrows. Things change and people wanted competition. Judging come into play.

    Time rolls on and people who like a type of horse but don't or can't ride start to show inhand. Very common. Can't ride miniture horses and ponies but people love to breed and show them. This is how times change, and to cater to the wants and desires of everyone, things get bigger and evolve.
    Can 'stuff' get lost along the way - YES. But the philosophy of the QH breed is that it can suit anybody and this is still true. There is a "type" that can fulfill any need or dream or show aspiration. Will every type suit every would-be owner - NO.

    But it's not meant to. Don't like it don't buy it. Are there welfare concerns in breeding and owning horses - YES. There always have been. Some people shouldn't even have a pic of a horse in their possession let alone a real one.

    But this thread has nothing to do with the welfare concerns of horses or even the QH. It's a thinly veiled attempt to insult, goad and draw out some members because they have a spike in their craw. It boils down to jealousy and insecurity and the hatred for anyone who does what they cannot.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  12. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    The really horrible back legs ARE happening at the high end shows.
    It is not just a few wack jobs breeding these horses,some of the breeders are producing really good riding horses as well as halter horses.
    Are the judges currently just looking at size and how pretty the front end looks?
    Seriously as a breeder you would know (maybe) why this style of halter horse came into fashion to start with?
  13. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    No EVP the photo at the start of this post was NOT doctored. The photo can be found on the breeder web page proclaiming this yearling as one of the best they have ever produced.
  14. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    And you know that they didn't doctor the pic? Oh yes people really can be that stupid. But OM the reality is that some QH people will breed less than perfect horses that might win in competition. They might even win in elite competition. That doesn't mean EVERY breeder is doing the wrong thing, or that every judge is being unethical.
    Why do the bad breeders do what they do? I dunno why does any dimwit do what they do. I'm just glad that the majority do the right thing. Considering the millions of halter horse breeders that says a great deal.
    I'm not idiot enough to judge the entire halter horse industry as bad breeders of badly conformed horses. Nor would I say that every judge is bad.

    I think this has been done to death. You think they are all bad. I know they are not. You google some info and pics as examples and I have seen them in the flesh here and overseas and know that the horses you speak of are in the minority.
    You get backslaps from posters who have never bred or had a national champion horse, who has never reached an elite level with progeny and who are not members of the association they obviously dislike.
    I mix with and learn from long standing professional horse breeders and showies here and overseas who I KNOW have the QH industry at heart.

    So, I don't care :} and I don't think anyone else does. Write those letters, and make sure your *#)"friends" continue to do it. I'm sure their long standing participation, contributions and successes will have officials jumping fire to assist and reply to them. :lol:

    PS: What are the origins and theories behind breeding them.....Halter horses don't interest me that much. I have never bred one, or from one, or to one. I breed performance horses only. My competition successes are in that area.....reining, cutting and campdrafting. I suggest joining a few QH halter forums or groups and asking them.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  15. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Yawn, why would the breeder doctor their own image to make the yearling look like that.

    Someone with intact brain cells ( who shock horror breeds halter horses!) explained how post legged horses came to winning in the halter ring.
    A line in the rules stating that if a horse had been placed it could be assumed that the conformation was the Judges are following the rules sort of.

    Just goes to show EVP there are some breeder's who answer and don't rant on and on about how important they are.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  16. manocaaron

    manocaaron Well-known Member

    Like I said before EVP the photo is NOT DOCTORED.

    I have professional photographers as friends who have carefully examined this photo and all agree (without exception) that it is not doctored,

    I can also pm you the website (and have offered already to do so) where you will see close to 100 foals all looking like this one, some look physically ill (they are so tucked up and malformed in the spine/hips and hind legs) but the breeder claims they are amazing and will become the best champions he has bred,

    I have spoken with people in the US who also corroborate that the AQH in the US as a halter horse can barely move without painkillers and have been totally ruined beyond belief. they have become a laughing stock among horse people there.

    The breeder who's website this is from also lashes out saying he is breeding WHAT THE JUDGES WANT.

    The photo is totally indicative of what the breed has been reduced to IN THE US, we are hoping the same things will not become widespread in Australia! the trend is beginning so lets hope it doesn't take hold. without people talking about it little by little it begins to happen and before you know it, all the good well conformed and excellent AQH in Australia have been left by the wayside in the name of Australians Following the US.

    And NO these comments from me, Brucey, OM and whoever else are not designed to goad or anything other than bringing attention to a complete F@#K up of mans doing.

    you say your not defending but in reality you are arguing with every person who says this is wrong!

    Instead of agreeing this is wrong and saying "what can WE all do about it" you simply cough up the same old shit about writing letters and that its not real, hide your head in the sand if you want to, it will only make you look more stupid when we are faced with unusable AQH competing with OTTB's as unsound paddock ornaments and companion horses desperate to find homes before next week or they will go to the doggers!! I guess the upside is they have more meat on them.

    No manipulation of the story that SOME breeders and SOME judges at high end US National Show level are breeding Halter QH that couldn't run down even half of a quarter mile straight if they where being chased by a bear!
    and run after a cow? you'd want to hope the cattle breeders are making the same mistakes as the AQH breeders just to even up that score wouldn't you?.

    EVP your rantings's and baa baaa'ings are getting boring your talking yourself around in circles and not actually making any sense. You try to get us off track with lots of bickering that has no true facts. despite your insistence, no one is listening to you.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  17. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Manna you're an absolute idiot.
    I never once excused bad breeding practises. Where have I made excuses for bad conformation or unethical judges. Read what I wrote for the love of God. Show some sense!
    I also said I didn't breed halter horses, so how would I know what goes on in some peoples minds. I said bad breeders are a minority, you obviously believe they are the majority. Go join a few halter horse forums and ask the members about your concerns. Maybe they can help you sleep at night lolol.
    Why wouldnt I suggest writing letters to the executive committee?
    Sounds sensible to me that if you're a member and have deep concerns that you'd write to the people who CAN actually do something to address them?
    Or is that too simple for you?
    You need to get out more and take poor old OM with you. You might see then that the QH show world isn't ALL bad. I'd guess you'd find SOME bad apples but you'd find a lot of good ones too.
    Unless of course you're only looking for the bad ones to use as forum examples, but that would be unfair and almost moronic wouldn't it?

    PS: As for examining "the photo for authenticity" your pro fiends must have access to the original photograph. Not a copy, not via a computer screen and not a print.
    Perhaps they can ask the person who took the actual pic? The only way to gauge authenticity of an image is to examine the original for signs of manipulation BEFORE it is reproduced for media!
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  18. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Well if you got your answer why are you still losing sleep?
    Of course I couldn't answer your question of "Why are people doing this"
    I have no idea why some people do stupid things.
    I merely posted that not ALL halter breeders breed ill conformed horses to show. I also said that not ALL judges would award for ill conformed horses.

    What YOU are reading in my posts I also have no idea. I suggested to Manna to join some halter horse forums and groups so that you can ask the questions that are upsetting you. Those people might be able to either solve the mystery for you or point you in the right direction to get the answers elsewhere.

    So is there something wrong with me suggesting for you to do that?
    Or is that excusing post hocks and badly conformed QH's?
  19. Brucey

    Brucey New Member

    EVP, I can't believe I'm saying this but it amost makes me sad to read your recent posts...your usual irritating, condescending and rude responses are still as predictable as ever, but you used to be good for at least the odd almost intelligent comment from time to time...when you weren't twisting other peoples that is, or straight out putting words in their mouths, and better still blatantly ignoring the truth even when it's blinding you (demonstrated in this thread by your determination to discredit the authenticity of a photo) which made for a good debate at times...

    I do enjoy intelligent discussions, and I generally enjoy reading other people's opinion's, but I can't help but feel dissapointed that on this occasion its been nothing short of mind numbing attempting to read your posts on this thread..I actually didn't get through them all..there is something almost manic in the way you dissected and mis-interpreted every sentence you quoted..I had to look away.

    If you tell me what I had for dinner last night, or what colour knickers I'm wearing I will be seriously creeped out! :p

    Now there's a classic example of you deliberately twisting a comment, in this case mine, so I shall correct you.

    I did not at any time state the ALL halter horses fell into this catogory, but you know that already. :stir:

    Soooo Welcome to Stockyard Serious! since you don't yet have an avatar I am unable to assess your conformational preferences as accurately as you have mine.*#)

    Since you guessed wrong I shall clarify - I have Docs Freckles Oak as my avatar because he has been one of my favourite cutting horses since I can remember, and I really like that picture of him in action.
    I also like Sprint bred Quarter Horses, and have numerous favourites, along with a number of super reining stallions....I could list my top 20 if you like?

    You seem to have misinterpreted my opinion on the subject of this thread (which is breeding halter horses with the conformation of the one that manocaaron posted at the start ) so I shall clarify that for you as well.

    I am against breeding halter horses to the degree of the one pictured, and to the degree that they require medication/pain killers to be comfortable standing.
    I also disagree Halter horses should be bred to reflect what is in fashion in the ring, or in direct opposition of the breed standard and rules.

    What a load of rubbish!! The reason we have halter horses is because people became obsessed with increasing the already muscled physique of the Quarter Horse, and it became fashionable to breed bigger muscles than the breeder down the road, and as humans tend to do, it went to the extreme. It
    had absolutely nothing to do with breeders who cant ride! how ridiculous!:rolleyes:

    As you pointed out, there are conformational issues in alot of other breeds too, all man made.
    The Arab was a good example you noted, and I agree.
    I have several friends who breed Arabs that are horrified at the current "sea horse" look that has become fashionable, and not because they think it looks horrific, but because it is detrimental to the health of the horse, and it is destructive to the bloodlnes within the breed.

    There are several other narrow minded and incorrect comments I could address in your posts but I am fairly sure you didnt just happen across this thread while browsing the internet, so it's reasonable to wonder if you are capable of having an intelligent, fair discussion on the subject without insulting people and making personal attacks, or if you are just here to dissagree with everything anyone else says, as EVP does.';'

    Either way there is no denying the issue the OP originally raised, but no one can stop you taking it personally if you so choose, so my advice is maybe you need to stop for a second and consider the fact that neither you or anyone else has the right to breed for your own selfish reasons, be it winning trophies, making money or otherwise.
    Your responsibility and priority first and foremost should be to uphold the integrity and values of the breed and its standards,....if its not,you shouldn't be doing it IMO.
  20. manocaaron

    manocaaron Well-known Member

    Well thank you kindly for yet another misguided and mind numbing repeat of the same old same old EVP. I never accused you of excusing bad breeding practises, I asked you WHY you continue to argue with everyone who states its wrong to breed horses of this pathetic and horrendous conformation. especially if you yourself agree that it is conformationally wrong. so? show some sense EVP and stop being moronic yourself!!!!

    Oh and Lolol, I sleep perfectly at night, Do you?

    and for the THIRD TIME EVP, I will send you the link to the guys website and you can see for yourself?. Like I have stated time and time again the guy is not pretending that the hocks are not post, they are and he knows it, he admits to breeding them like this because thats what judges want?.
    What a shame Admin would not allow the actual webpage link here as then you would have no choice but to see for yourself?.

    You really are pathetic that you keep going on and on misconstruing every thing we all say and yet we are all in the agreement that the horses are conformationally incorrect?

    You told us we could not have a valid opinion unless we bred them and showed them, and yet you state yourself that you do not breed or show halter QH. so in your own words? You have no valid opinion either!

    and no, a photographer does not need the original to check for editing, there are a number of indicators that would show if it had been truly doctored and why would a guy doctor over 100 photos to all look the same anyway? that would be delusional, oh and on his website there are photos from professional photographers at national shows so I would doubt all of them have been doctored too.

    Have a nice day EVP

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