Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by manocaaron, Dec 4, 2014.
Manocaaron are you able to pm me the name of the stud?
Well that was a fun read! :lol:
manocaaron you are lucky the photo at the start of this thread stayed...I posted it, and a few others (mine were inverted to protect the identity of the horses though) a couple of years or more back to try to have the exact same dicussion as old mate has attempted to have here...and got the same result, and worse.
You might still be able to find the thread, although its probably been edited or much of it deleted...still, Im sure you'll find a number of debates on here in relation to QH breeding practices, just get ready for all the contradictions, edits, and personal inuendo.*
I think I recall EVP accusing me of scare mongering when I posted said pics, and raised concerns these breeding practices were heading to Australia, because unfortunately we tend to follow what the Americans do..and what do you know, they are popping up everywhere in Australia and breeders are defending these irresponsible and yes, inhumane breeding practices.
There was also a suggestion by a Breeder on here that actually breeding a well conformed horse to one of the horrendous examples I posted a pic of, might result in a decent animal???
For anyone to suggest (especially a breeder) that this is not so bad, or could be worse because these horses are well fed and not starved is ludicrous....not the opinion of anyone who truly cares about the direction of the QH breed.#(
The majority of these horses suffer greatly, and most are on pain relief their whole lives. Find me one thats ridden...they cant be!
The chain of responsibility IMO is the AQHA, the judges, and the breeders. It is their responsibility to uphold the integrity and standard of the breed first and foremost... Any breeder who breeds so far away from the standard of the breed that the horse is physically unhealthy, and unrecongnisable to the QH breed should be ashamed of themselves, and yes its unfortunate people dont need a license, or even any knowledge of the breed to be allowed to do it.
I can't like that comment enough, but have to add that the judges placing these horses also should be stripped of their credentials and no longer allowed to judge.
if the whole class has horses like this in it?. none of them get a placing. simple as that. go home empty anded and things will change. the problem lies with the judges along with the breeders.
surely the standard doesn't accept whats happening so why are judges judging against the standard? I just trawled through 160 pages (and counting) of AQH rules and so far… I haven't found a standard! plenty of crap that really shouldn't need to be there but so far …. no standard!!!!! You'd think… that the standard should be in the first 3 pages, wouldn't you?
I think what it comes down to is if you dont like a type of horse or breed then dont buy it or breed it or show it. If you DO like a breed and want to participate then spend your money and do it. If you have visions and opinions then make them heard by using your time, money and influence and approaching the powers within an association. Thats making a difference.
Its very easy to have opinions and voice them on horse forums. Different story to take those concerns to a level where things can be discussed and concerns addressed.
I urge anyone who has concerns about a breed they are interested in, who are active members of a breed association and who spend their money with regos and fees, to write or email officials with these concerns and issues. Im sure they will receive a response.
On their homefront they can purchase and breed from and to horses of their choosing with the view to standing by their principles and getting out there in the wider showing community and marketplace with their efforts. That way they can be seen to be making a statement other than pitiful bleatings on a horse forum.
I admire any breeder and showie who is spending money and making a real contribution to their breed of choice. The others are really just horse owners. Nothing wrong with that but it does say how much their opinions are valid and relevent. Probably about .02%
Want to make a difference then get heard in an arena where the horses you own or breed speak for you.
Brucey Ill repeat, when you have bred or shown anything of substance and have received the recognition from those efforts, you might find your opinions and views will actually be received with something other than "who is this person?".
To be considered a passionate contributer and someone of credibility one must actually be an active member on the scene or circuit......whether as a member or show participant or someone who adds to the market. Strong outspoken views from people who do nothing within the thing they are so vocal about is really only indicative of one thing.......their own insignificance.
EVP are you really still spinning these same old lines?
People do not have to have a set of credentials that suit your criteria in order to have an opinion,or for their opinion to be considered significant.:blink:
All it requires is common sense, you dont have to win in a show ring to see what the issues are in this case especially!
People are not blind, so regardless of how many horses they do or dont own, what they do or dont show, or breed etc etc they are still entitled to form and voice their own opinions without being met with arrogant and disrespectful (not to mention bloody childish) remarks...nor are their opinions any less significant than yours, or anyone elses.
In case you havent noticed, with respect to the Halter Horses especially, the owners/breeders who are 'contributing' and are 'out in the arena doing it' are the ones damaging the breed by breeding these unfortunate animals! Not to mention the cruelty of such practices, which suggests what about a persons integrity and morals? Or lack of?
But their opinions are more significant according to you because they're out there doing it, or they own and/or breed?
You do this to try to deflect from the heart of the real issues Im convinced of it, its the same old tune and I highly doubt anyone is fooled by it.
You cannot discredit people's opinions based purely on what they do or dont breed,or do or dont show blah blah blah.....that is ridiculous.:}
If you go into section 2 - Stud Book Regulations, in the rule book on the AQHA website, you will find the standard of excellence, along with desirable and undesirable characteristics listed.
I absolutely agree with your comment regarding judges been stripped of their credentials for not judging the breed to standard too! Well said!**)
What an insightful, thought provoking opinion! Couldn't have said it better myself old mate! **)**)**)
The American breeder that produced the horror at the start of this thread has been a very successful producer of halter champions for a very long time.
The product of the stud also won in 2014.
So by EVP's way of thinking I guess this type of breeding practice is OK, the Stud is successful, their horses are selling and getting placed. The Owner of the Stud pays fees. They are also producing what the market seems to want.
According to EVP I am just jealous of anybody who makes money from horses! Because I don't breed I could not possibly be able to spot a post leg
( neither it seems can the "educated" halter horse judges) also because I don't pay fees my opinion is invalid.
The post back leg is a horrible thing conformation wise for most people, but not for the Judges of the American Quarter Halter Horse, they keep on placing horses with the conformation flaw.
EVP said the judges were being "reeducated" about the breed standard.
Everyone is entitled to have an opinion and voice it. Personally I only sit up and take notice when I can see that the person actually has the knowledge and experience to back up their opinion. Otherwise their opinion is just that....an opinion. EVERYONE has one, but only certain people have one worth considering as relevent. Perhaps I just have a higher critera for learning and opinion exchanging.
If people are passionate about issues they should voice them to the appropriate bodies. So by all means write to both associations and let them know your concerns about the breed. I'd say you would need to be a member of both for you to get a written response, and I couldn't guarantee that you'll get one, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing you sent something in.
Halter QH's have never interested me much. It is but one sector of the entire industry. It would be nice to think that everyone who breeds a horse has integrity and knows what they are doing, but the reality is they don't. Happens in every breed ( or mixed breed).
I do what I can to make a difference in what I produce for the market. I believe by doing that, and making those yearly contributions that my opinions, actions and successes will speak volumes. But again I probably have higher expectations and so I try to deliver examples of those higher expectations. Because I believe that an opinion can only be considered relevent and significant if it has been formed by experience and action, I try and deliver the same.
I know what I do. I know what I have done for the industry and I know what I produce. It speaks for me and my opinion. I'm happy to entertain the bleatings from others, but REAL opinions are far better reading.
Please let us know what reply you receive from the associations.
Yes OM if you were a member of the association you might have access to read about all of that.
Apparently the halter horse ring in every breed of horses has an effect on the breeding trends of the breed. Some of those "effects" would be seen to be good and some bad. Why not get busy googling and find all the breeds that have sins committed by inhand showies and breeders. Seeing as you have this passion about welfare ect ect what about rounding out your googling knowledge and getting really educated! The QH is only one breed. Lots of breeding sins in lots of other horse breeds. I'm sure we'll be facinated
Really does anyone care? Those people making reply posts on a horse forum do not have the capacity to do anything constructive in their own backyards and have never done so, so therefore "their opinions" are useless regurgitations. I'd love to see examples of horses bred by these people? See horses that they have bred that are out there doing things in perfect conformation? I know we won't see any such things from you OM because you have never done it. Your postings show one thing only - that you own a computer.
Brucey do you know any AQHA Judges? Especially those capable of judging on an international level? If you do why not get in touch with them and voice your concerns? Perhaps they could also put you in touch with someone within the assocations you could send your letter to?
These are very old gripes you have. In that last few years I hope you have managed to breed some horses that exemplify the breed (in your opinion of course). I hope those horses have gone out and been critiqued by other breeders, showies and accredited judges. I can't imagine how upsetting it must be to see so many sins in a breed and not be able to do anything about it except post on a horse forum. :cry:
Because I am the type who places importance on experience and actions would you consider telling everyone what you have bred and what those horses are doing?
Personally I find it hard to believe that having "an opinion" is equilivent to having done something remotely significant....or even done something at all.
Of course you can continue like OM to say you don't need experience and actions to justify having an opinion.....and you'd be correct. Everyone has an opinion. But for an opinion to be anything other than a butthole, it needs to be supported by important things like real life.
There is a discipline system for judges who don't follow the rules.
Judges are re-educated regularly. This is mandatory.
There is a judges monitoring program approved by the executive committee and the judges committee.
So recerification programs are in place to try and keep judging consistent.
Not sure what other rules and programs can be initiated by the AQHA perhaps those who are posting could suggest some? Ask to be involved in some discussions? Make a contribution? Surely it's just as easy to write a letter off to an association as it is to gripe on a horse forum?
Or is it that people only get a response from an audience on a horse forum?
EVP, your 'bleatings' are becoming rather repetitive and rather pathetic not to mention irrelevant.
Opinions are just that, yours I find strange as you seem to be defending what the majority can see so clearly as being wrong. but hey, thats just your opinion.
I dont agree that someone HAS to have bred and shown AMQ halter horses to have a valid opinion, forget what breed it is for a minute. the conformation we are all discussing would be considered horrendous in ANY breed. these animals are conformationally incorrect. simple as that.
there are a number of breeds that I have issues with - how they are bred, how they shown, how they have been changed, and some to do with how they are treated?. so in your words I cannot possibly have a valid opinion of these animals unless I join all their societies and start breeding and showing each of these breeds myself?
EVP, Id love to do that but my property is only 70 acres and my budget wont run to that extreme!
I do breed horses and breed to substance and conformation and not to fashion. I am also a member of the society responsible for the breed I am involved in. its not AQH but that does not mean, in my 45 years of horse experience, that I am clueless to conformational faults in that breed, simply because I don't breed them.
writing on public horse forums DOES help as it raises awareness! sending a letter to a society that in your words will not even reply if I am not a member of them, is like dropping a penny into a wishing well. they will sweep it into the bin and nothing will happen. Letting the general public know via internet forums is more like shouting from a rooftop.
If you are so 'in' with members of the society, ask them to join this forum?. maybe they will be able to actually answer some of the questions that you haven't been able to.
No. If you read my numerous replies to OM you will note I did not defend anyone who breeds ill conformed horses of any breed.
It helps to have some experience so that any opinions are well rounded and wide.
I agree. Animals should be bred with a clear purpose, by people who know what they are doing and with a conformation that will allow them to do their breed purpose. No arguements there.
No. But you can address those issues to the relevent breed bodies. Again, having something to do with a particular breed on many levels and mixing with people who have years of activity within a breed actually helps to FORM opinions. If you have no knowledge from within, how can valid opinions be formed and better still how can they be read as significant?
You may have a general knowledge earned from your years with horses. But breed specific knowledge is invaluable. So is breed specific involvement. If people have huge issues with an association they are members of they can voice that to the people who can respond.
Yes the sharing of information about horse breeding if very important. I agree totally. So is sharing the responsibility involved in doing horse breeding correctly, with purpose, with integrity and with ethics. Sadly this fact is lost on many people who think horse breeding is easy as mating mare to stallion. If one thing can be gleaned from pics of ill conformed horses is that breeding horses is far more than mare and stallion!
You would get nothing from any society or organisation if you couldn't prove a membership or valid association.....lolol. Like saying you had a problem with a product from Woolies but you never even bought it! "My loaf of bread is stale". "Where did you buy it from?" "I didn't buy it, I just know that there is stale bread out there". Nothing will happen if people don't actually make their concerns know to the people who can actually do something. FACT.
If you really believe that a few forum posts can make people breed horses with real purpose for perfect conformation then you have learnt nothing from your years reading forums. You can put all the reasons why something is appropriate out in the universe and people will still maintain they can do what they want because they can. People are still breeding crappy, ill conformed, or mixed bred, no decernable lineage horses, no purose intended horses, here and all over the world!
How can griping on a horse forum about how horses are judged and bred, from people who have nothing to do with this, actually do something positive or address the issues? It can't. That is ridiculous.
Education is only applicable to those who wish to learn! And learning should come from sources who actually have knowledge, experience and wisdom to impart!!!!!!!!!
I'm not "in" with anyone. Except having friends who are involved at a committee level. It is universal that if any member has an issue that they can write and expect a reply. I'm sorry to inform you but the world doesn't work like that. Committees of ANY kind actually require people who have complaints to address them by writing to them. Thats just the way it is.
I don't think it's ever been any different. Also a society membership allows people access to website material that might answer their questions.
I don't think any question was asked in this thread. It was a thread started by using a very old doctored photo and asking people to comment. People did comment on the photo as I did. I said the photo was fake but showed a gross distortion or example of hocks. I said that people shouldn't purposely breed horses with hocks like this. I said that comformation is imperitive to good function. I said that AMQHA have implimented strong programs to keep judges consistent in their placings. I said that these programs would be ongoing in efforts to improve showing and breeding. I said that certification programs internationally will continue to do this and that executive committees would monitor the outcome.
Please write to the association with your concerns and even send them a copy of the picture you posted. Ask them if this picture is a true representation of the breed. When you get a response please let us know.
Horses with the same or worse comformation of the back end won "world champion" titles at high levels in 2014.
Stallions with the same comformational fault are advertised on the Association's web page.
There is a clear diagram of what the Quarter Horse should look like with diagrams describing how to judge a post leg.
How much education do "highly" trained judges need to be able to notice a rather large comormational fault ?
You do not have to be a breeder to see the fault.
You have to be a breeder of Halter Quarter Horses to NOT SEE the fault.
Also a judge of the same breed to NOT SEE the fault.
Somebody looking for a riding horse that has any hope of staying sound would not pay for one of these things.
I have not been to a QH breed show for a very long time, but what I do remember is that the halter horses were similar to the ridden horses in the ring.
I did not see any of these post legged horses at the SEC. The only place I saw them were in American western breed magazines.
I do not understand why they have bred two completely different horses, I thought the halter classes were to show the horse's confirmation to the breed standard.
I had a look at the link to the American breeder's website before it was taken down, and I do not know how the horses' (I think the first photos were of the stallions) legs could carry the bulk of the body.
If you believe that judging standards are being breeched then write to the association. If you believe that the association's advertising material is not echoing the standards of that association then include that.
You are also showing your ignorance where high level QH halter showing is concerned because at those levels horses are not ridden, or are rarely ridden.
Such is the dynamic versatility of the breed that specialisation to cover dozens of disciplines is how it is these days.
Whether people like that or not doesn't matter......its thriving and well patronised.
I hope your forum bleats get plenty of attention and you can change the world from your lounge chair. Because your experience, knowledge and contributions surely won't change a thing.:lol:
Oh Dear EVP, you just beat around the bush having a whinge and nit picking every comment to pieces, I honestly don't have the time nor energy to start quoting your every contradictory claim on this thread.
BUT... if you had been able to look at the website for the breeder of the original photo you would see without any doubt that the photo had NOT been photoshopped.
EVERY single horse on his site looked like the one in the photograph that I originally posted. The breeder also admitted to breeding posty hocks BECAUSE thats what judges want to see.
The saddest thing is that all his Stallions and Mares and the many many foals on his large website showed the same conformation and they were WINNING at big shows, national shows!
I can PM you the mans website if you don't believe me.