So?. what is wrong with this yearling? it SHOULD be obvious to all?...

Discussion in 'Breeding Horses' started by manocaaron, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    The only place I could find the exact image was on a site about the bad conformation found in the halter horse breeding classes.
    But there are plenty of stud photos of young horses and stallions and mares with the same back end issues.
  2. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Hobby horse? Gee isn't that the one you ride OM? Or breed.....:lol: Oh no that's the make-believe horse isn't it.

    Plenty of pictures fullstop of horses with less than desirable conformation, from all over the world, from all breeds. Some even getting shown. Some with foals by their side. Some on stud websites, Youtube and in ads.

    Did you just stumble across this fact OM?

    There's also plenty of saw-mouth uber-collected horses being ridden, shown, advertised and video'ed in the English world too. Perhaps on your cyber trail rides you might stumble across them too. Then you could post the names ect here for all the interested people to read.....if there are any interested people that is. :cry: :hug:

    As I mentioned, I know for a fact that this association is working hard to bring judging and breeding directions more inline and consistent. For the betterment of the breed internationally, and for more transparency in the showring. It's these concerted efforts that ultimately make a real impact on breed direction moving forward. These things might take time to flow on down to the smallest members and their deeds, but small steps in the right direction. And thats from the horses mouth. Not from the goats patootie. :lol:
  3. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Some of those horses with questionable conformation were winning in halter classes endorsed by the AQHA in the 2013 season and are still offered at stud for the 2015 season.
  4. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Gee since when is 2013 being confused with 2014? Ever heard of Board member changes and elections? What about policies - ever heard of them being drawn up, presented and implemented?

    As for horses at stud. Simple answer is as mentioned (already), that favour and flavour takes time to flow down the line. What judges will fail in the ring takes years to transmit to foals born and calibre of mares bred.
    There is also the very big thing called 'freedom to chose'. Breeders with some integrity will steer clear of stallions (and mares) who have deviations to acceptable conformation. It's just the way it is. People who give a fig will seek out breeding stock that exemplifies the breed. This really is nothing new. People have been using 'free will' since Adam had a pony.

    Those that don't will still exist because unfortunately breeding horses does not require a licence. Proven need nothing to own a horse and even less to breed one. Same as people having no experience in an area are still able to comment on it. :lol:

    The Quarter Horse is a marvellous breed of horse. Millions do it justice, and some don't. For every post hocked short necked ugly ill conformed critter out there, there are many millions more that are superb examples of the breed.
    In lots of countries too.

    Lots of horses end up as obvious examples of a breeders bad decisions. And that isn't exclusive to bad conformation. Some horse's just shouldn't be bred at all........regardless of having good conformation!

    OM. When you finish riding your make believe horse over your pretend hills on your dream-about farm and go back to your trusty computer, have a look at youth programs and the judging seminars as well as the policies by this association........Aw soz I forgot you're not a member and can only see stuff from those roolly troolly believable places like Youtube ect. pfft.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  5. Deb2

    Deb2 Guest

    This ^ reads like the rantings of someone seriously mentally deranged ???? Perhaps meds not working, or working too well. I'm not sure.

    Old Mate, well done.
  6. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I'm sorry you find plain english difficult to read Deb2.
    I do try and keep it simple, unfortunately I can't be held responsible for your lack of comprehension.
    I suggest a drive over to make believe horse-land where OM lives. You can keep each other company and talk about all the great horses you never bred, rode or showed. You might be able to get on the computer and look at pictures of horse places and clinics, international shows and expo's. It's a big world out there. I'm sorry you've never seen it, or experienced it or learnt from it. While I'm living it I'll be sure to keep you in my thoughts.....not.
  7. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Meh EVP's ravings used to be slightly amusing,now they are just plain old hat.
    This was a thread about about the conformation of the yearling pictured, and if the image had been altered.
    I wanted to know why in the hell someone would breed a horse like that and what it would be used for.
    :blink:Some of the Stallion's being offered for stud are quite an eye opener.
    And guess what EVP anyone can read the AQHA breed mission statement about what they want for the future of the AQHA halter horse, while that is fabulous why did it take so long?
    Also while the legs look a little bit better Rumerz's the one of the 2014 world halter champion's still has a strange back end.
    It's pretty sad that the AQHA judges have to be "re-educated" to not place horses with such a basic conformation fault.
  8. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I'll make this even simplier for you OM.

    Yes. The imagine has been "doctored". Easy to do apparently and makes
    certain people happy.

    Seeing as you have never shown a horse let alone a Quarter Horse you probably don't know that ALL judges go through programs of re-certification and it is mandatory for them to attend testing to continue to hold a judges ticket. This is even more rigourous for judges who hold higher levels of credentials able to judge internationally. The judges get judged. And no..... one single mission statement on a public blurb page isn't ALL there is to read regarding up to date rule changes, planned conventions and discussions or moves underway to action the findings from those forums that will affect the membership.

    I did say (I think 4 times now) that the flow on effect of anything takes time. The same applies to the ridden sector. Many changes to Western Pleasure have begun and are being seen at shows and judged appropriately.

    I'm sure your updated judges ticket is in the mail OM...lolol. What you look at as a still picture would only have been a micro second used by a real judge to award a win or a place.

    Halter horses form only a small percentage of this wonderful breed. Conformation is subjective and sometimes irrelevent to the success of so many individual horses-in many breeds. They don't need to have perfect legs or perfect anything to become a champion. I wish the same didn't apply to opinions from humans. Any Jackass can have one and it doesn't matter how they express it. They don't need accreditation, testing and there are no levels of ability. They just have one and toss it around. :lol:
    Poor things think that having one and expressing it makes it valid and true.
    How funny is that.
    I personally know 3 AQHA judges. All accrediated internationally. One of those is a Board member. Where did you say you got the information from? The information you used to form your opinion?

    Or did you just stumble across an old pic and get all excited :rolleyes:
    Sorry to upset you OM, I don't make excuses for breeders with no brains or ethics, I have a personal critical eye when judging horses I breed for the arena, and I know that associations work hard to keep judging fair and equitable and most of all consistent. But you wouldn't know any of that because you only have an opinion. It's the only real thing you possess isn't it?

    Well done Old Mate.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  9. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Off topic now BUT why did it take all those "highly qualified" judges so long to notice that there was a problem in the halter horse show ring?
    The halter horse should be a really good example of the whole breed not a Frankenstein freak that is unsound for much more than standing or trotting in a ring.
    Seem as how you know so many people in the "right" circles you could enlighten us all?
    I'd seen images of massive over muscled halter horses and assumed that those images were changed to make the horses look freaky. Instead there are studs posting photos of their stock claiming that the images had not been altered still looking like Frankenstein after the potion.
    On second thought maybe a sane person could answer that question EVP because I don't think you are capable of answering a genuine question with out a vitriolic rant or mentioning goats.:D
  10. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I have no idea why judging or individual judges scored the way they did/do. Seeing as I am not a judge nor a mind reader I would'nt dare presume to know what they were thinking. :p

    Perhaps a brief QH history lesson could be your next DIY project OM. Then you will know just how many arena's the breed compete in.
    There are about a dozen. Horses bred for different disciplines or horses capable of traversing the line into different sports. I would have thought seeing as you visited the association website you would have read all that?

    Couldn't be that you posted knowing jack about what it is you are posting?
    And yes I am very lucky to have some wonderful long-term friends who contribute to the association that they love. Lots of hours, dedication and travel and they are delivering back to the breed they are so passionate about. I am privledged to call them 'friends' and love picking their brains. As well as enjoying their hospitality when we visit!!

    It's forever obvious that you know so little about the QH breed and I'm chuffed you haven't disappointed in this latest offering. Keep up the good work. Blurrr. Ole.:rockon:
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  11. I think it is all about money. Breeders have invested a lot of $$ in a bigger, more musclier breeding stock, some preferring HYPP positive horses to achieve "that" look. May be those breeders were carrying judges tickets?';' who knows?
    We are not breeding halter horses, I don't like or agree with what I see in a "modern " type :eek: but I will not be joining the halter horse bashing debate, especially with copied pictures of real horses. It is not ethical in my opinion.
    As a breeder I know that it could take one generation to stuff things up and 4 generations to imrove on them.
    Give it time and things might change for the betterment of the breed in mind in the halter industry. Lets hope.:)
  12. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Well if all breeders had your ethics then the horses in the halter shows would not have the conformation issues that they currently have.
    The breeders were following the awards and money and titles.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
  13. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    OM if all horses with bad conformation were exclusive to QH in the halter ring your opinion might hold water. There are millions of horses who are born with defects and just as many who acquire defects. From every horse breed on the planet. Where does money come into play in all these? In the majority it doesn't. The cause of the majority is ignorance and the belief that breeding horses is as easy as owning a mare and having access to a stallion. It gets defended all the time "Who says I should'nt breed my mare she is amazing" Yes, amazingly average usually.
    Breeding a horse is'nt all about wanting to make money. But perhaps if it was then better horses would be bred. People who want to make money usually are prepared to spend it too. I have complete faith that the market sorts out the roses from the thorns. Good horses who exemplify the breed, who are black type and have a performance record will always sell well. Buyers aren't stupid. They do their homework and won't spend money on rubbish. Won't stop the less educated breeder who breeds because they can. But try removing the rights of anyone to reproduce anything they want...won't happen. Indignation rules.
  14. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    This whole thread has been about AQHA Halter Horses, not all horses in general.
    What's fascinating about the AQHA is how different the halter breed lines came to look from the working AQHA. The same extreme breeding is happening in other halter rings in the US.
    Some halter breeders were also breeding reining stock as well so it is not that they did not know what they were doing.
    They are breeding for titles and money and you are not seriously telling me that horses with post legs exemplify the breed?
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
  15. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I think its naive to single out one breed when talking about bad conformation. All horses have the potential to be born with defects or to acquire them through management (or lack thereof).
    The pic supplied by the OP might not be the result of "breeding" could be the result of "management" ie: acquired. I wouldn't know and either would you.
    Same with club foot. 99% of this condition is caused through ill management. Yet people still say it's a "breeding fault".
    Post legged horses is not something I could see a breeder wanting as a desireable characteristic.......but halter breeders might prefer a horse who isn't slightly cow hocked (which lots and lots and lots of QH's are). In fact I personally like to see some spread for the performance disiplines I target. It allows greater stop and easier roll-backs.

    At the end of the day a breeder who has designs to breed and show SHOULD be breeding horses that exemplify the breed and a judge is the critic who awards for the same. The AQHA here and the master association in the USA are trying to make judging more consistent to promote better breeding directives. This is a good thing.

    Will it encourage people to breed horses that exemplify the breed - I hope so. Will it stop people breeding pigs in pokes....NO. Just as forums that have members who breed good horses with ethics and integrity, and who post examples and discuss their goals won't stop OTHER people breeding horses just because they own a mare, live next door to a stallion, want a foal to keep "just for me forever and ever" or just want to breed a foal because they want to breed a foal. No license needed and no law to stop it. :cool:
  16. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Why would you cause a post leg look through management on a well conformed horse unless the post leg look was what you were after.
    Is it to make the bum look bigger?
  17. wawa85

    wawa85 Guest

    Yikes I sure hope that the image is doctored, poor foal if it isn't.
  18. To be able to support the back end at a stand still I think? The strongest upright support structures are straight.
    I haven't seen bridges built on supports with an angle ? Lol
  19. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Do you even know what post hocks are? Do you know how to measure the degree of post hock look? Some horses are naturally more straight than others. Some horses are more cow hocked. I actually prefer a small degree of cow hocks in my performance horses. I like the balance they provide for sliding, roll backs and hard stopping. The Standardbred is naturally a more cow hocked horse.

    An owner can ruin a horses legs with more certainty than a breeder can. Bad management, too much or too little of so many things influence how a horses legs finish up.

    Do QH people actively seek to breed Frankenstein horses? No I don't think so.
    Do English riders seek to yang and fang and spur and uber-collect every horse they ride? No I don't think so. Is there a percentage of dickheads in every horse breed - absolutely. Do they represent the majority - NO.

    The fact you have nothing to do with either showing or breeding I completely understand that this is hard for you to understand. Of course you are entitled to express the opinion you have, it's as free as is the opinion on what constitutes a show worthy horse.
    I, however, think it's stupid to classify every QH halter breeder as unethical. I guess from your kitchen window that it might look like they are, but I know for a fact that they aren't.

    Apart from telling you that the association is all over it, and that the judging standards are vigorously scrutinized and changes made where necessary, thats all I can do. I defend anyone's right to make money from breeding horses. Wanting to breed the best and being prepared to make that happen by SPENDING money is what keeps quality spectacular horses being born. God forbid the only horses out there to buy, show or ride are ones bred by people who have no desire to make money! That would leave only the ones bred for "just me, foreva, because I wub her". Hellppppppppp.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
  20. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    There you have it the HYPP bulky post leg look was winning so the breeders of AHQA halter horses were breeding what was winning and what was making the money.
    The conformation outlines from the AHQA halter horse from 1990 are not that different to the conformation description in the AHQA pdf for Judges of AHQA halter shows from 2004. Going by the conformation set out by the AHQA this kind of horse should not have been being placed really at all.
    Maybe they were blinded by the huge muscles?
    There is a section on muscling- but no section says must look like David Banner on a bad day.

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