SHARAWAY !!!!!! and all "natural horsemanship" LOVERS

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by smash, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    No need to appologise, i could have said things a little more clearly. And yeah, i also feel we are on the same page most of the time :)
    And like i said, some of the issues being bought up are valid and the discussion could be quite interesting. Which is why i said make it a thread of it's own. I'm being serious. No way was i saying to 'be quiet'.

    One thing i will say, i admire your faith in yourself. You seem to be quite grounded and know what you know to be true and believe it. Therefore, i think, you have no problems coping with different perspectives, because you can bring them back to your strong 'core', and quickly assess what's what. A lot of people aren't that strong, or so centered.
  2. Faxie

    Faxie Well-known Member

    i cannot utterly believe what this thread has disintergrated into LOL
  3. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Fairly ETA ***

    not worth it - and too confused/perplexed to make

    yes - back to origional topic, said all I wanted to really.....nice horse, nice paddock, nice arena......

    Not impressed with the tricks.

    Just keeping it simple **)
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  4. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    Did I read correctly.....So you think "less" about what you do around horses? That it is about when you do it, how and where you do it? And you do it damn well, did the horse tell you that? :confused: ';'

    Now that makes sense except the "make" part!

    Interestingly the video( I only watched half as the whole thing irritated me) in question here is about liberte work NOT NH! :eek: So still not sure how NH got dragged into it really its all quite different, thats just misconceptions I suppose, as soon as the horse has no bridle or saddle on it is NH. Stacey Westfalls reining run is super BUT the mare in questions is "spur" trained and was also was a Futurity horse (hence fully trained in the bridle). Perhaps everyone gets wound up pontificating about things they don't know much about? #(
  5. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    eoroe, i love reading your thinking logic LOL
    liberty work not NH lollipop, see now ya gone and made NH a discipline LOL
    the video is about someone ABLE to DO classical moves minus bridle, an achievement in itself !!!!!
    not sure what repetitive moves you are talking about cornflower?
    all work we do is repetitive, even lunging around in circles.
    all 3 vidoes in this thread, show what people CAN DO with their horse.
    the mere fact that each and every one of you in this thread would be OVER THE MOON if you could go out in a field/arena/paddock and just to be able to walk a figure of 8 minus any gear on your horse, makes your comments hypocritical.
    yet ripping apart someones achievements the way to go. quiet sad really.
    if the horse was not happy with what he was doing, he would not stay there and do it, hell most cant even lead their horse in the open without a halter and lead rope.
    all three videos should be seen for what they are, a great achievement for that individual !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  6. JustJam

    JustJam Well-known Member

    So, in your opinion lollipop, is the first video an example of 'liberte' work and not NH? Is that your point, lollipop? (serious question :)) )

    Have really enjoyed how this thread has 'developed'... much like life really - you start on one path in the forest and end up passing through a path in the meadow :) ;)

    Some fabulous discussion! :))
  7. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    Yes that is my point. The philosophy of Dorrance was not about "being" natural(ie working gearless and tricks), it was about working "with" the horse and not against them, realising their need for self preservation and working with the horses idea. No gimmicks, no carrot sticks, no rope twirling etc that is marketing by disciples of theirs to make money. Dorrance died poor as to a degree did Hunt, Hunt was very against PP because he made a "mockery" of a principle that didn't involve tricks. PP did it for himself not the horse.
    Smash I can ride my horses bridless in all paces, it is a great indication of whether your horses want to be with you!!
    The video irritated me because to me the horse didn't look so happy in his "soul". :(
    As for disciplines and methods well humans need disciplines and methods NOT horses. Horses just need mutual respect and understanding, horses are talking all day long but not too many humans are observant enough to listen.

    So as for rope twirling and carrot sticks well that is for the human to have a "method" and for the horse too work in. However the idea taking away the gimmicks is still similar. **)
  8. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Yes. That is correct. Every horse/situation is different, and it comes down to timeing and feel. Probem wth that? its isnt a new idea...when working with that timeing and feel, you dont have time to reflect and write and essay on it.
    Calm down - read it again. And YES lollipop - The horse does tell me it is working. If your horse DOESNT have the oppurtunity to give you feedback on the work, or you simply arnt listening, then I hope you never touch a horse again.

    Why? After I have done something - I usually reflect on it. Has it worked? Could I have done a better Job? Did I use something different? This ALLOWS, (better choice of word you ya **) ) me to UTILISE this information at at a later date, perhaps with other horses, people ect. 'MAKEING' 'CAUSING'....the experience learned to be more worthwhill to me than before.


    Inflammatory comments their lollipop. Do you know us personally? Gosh....the word must be out that we are al CRAP at what we do.....pmsl *#)

    Who cares mate WHERE the conversation went, dont get so bothered by it. We are not going to come to your house and MAKE you agree with us (their is that confusing word again)....just walk away from the computer.....

    I personally couldnt give a toss about what the rest of you do - or whether you do it well or not.

    We were having a dicussion about topics that flowed on from the Video. Guess what - LIFE HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE PLANS.

    That was fun.....looks like it may have been a party of 1...or 2.

    By the NH didnt fall out of Gods back dont need to be so precious about it.

    So um, yeah, back the conversation. Anyone care to dicsuss the difference between Liberty and 'Natural Horsemanship' to me **)
  9. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    You know....we are actually on the same page. I with you mate - not against you.

    I do agree with the bolded comment - He wasnt at ease, mentally balanced and I wondered how long it could go for withou something breaking.

    I too have done plently of liberty work in the past.
    I havent/didnt call it Natural Horsemanship - other people have. Beacause it wasnt. It was just about having good timeing, feel and balance.

    You are correct - twirly sticks, ropes, and games make it easier for the human brain. Not a necessity at all.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  10. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    A figure of 8 smashy is a bit different to 20 - 30 tempi changes.
    ANd I very much doubt she is happy with a figure of 8 herself.

    Im not being Hypocritical at all. I wouldnt want to do what she is - and dont want acheive that.

    I actually could care less about what she does - as long as she doesnt do it with my horses **)
  11. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Smash, the 'repetativeness' is exactly what Eoroe is saying. I'm talking about the length of time she does the same movement.
    Lunging isn't repetative if you make it interesting. And i'm the last person on earth you'd see standing in the middle of a circle with my horse doing endless laps around me on the end of a rope at one pace.

    And niether am i being hypocritical. Why is it that when someone doesn't quite think something is the bee's knee's, they get called a hypocrite?

    There are lots of videos about liberty and NH, and some of them i marvel at, and others i don't like so much, or don't sit quite right with me. That's not being a hypocite.
    I have an 'ideal' picture in my mind because of things i've seen that i admire and respect. And the more something is away from my ideal, the more it doesn't sit right with me.
    And although i'm not a GP rider, or can't ride my horse bridleness, i do have an opinion, formed from seeing (both in video and in real life) and reading, about what i think it should look like. It may only be my opinion, and my 'ideal', and i may be the only person in the world who has a particular taste, but because i don't share someone else 'ideal', does not make me a hypocrite.

    It would make me one if i was saying this is crap, but was using the same techniques and ending up with the same result. Both of which i don't want to do.

    Yes, i want to develop my liberty work. But i want to do it following my own principles to end up at my own 'ideal'.

    Same way i have no interest in campdrafting. But i still admire and respect how a good horse can cut a cow.

    I admire her skill in teaching the horse this, and good on her. She's done something that works for her, and great. It just doesn't fit in with my idea of liberty. And i'm quite hard on myself and a bit of a perfectionist, so if i seem harsh or critical, i imagin that's why.
  12. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    MMm the thing is someone sees a horse working at liberty or liberte' and assumes it is NH and it isn't but why is it lumped into the same box? :confused: I am way confused at that. Their is nothing "natural" about horses jumping through hoops of fire, laying down, rolling over, bowing etc....they are completeley "unnatural" acts for a horse so why call it NH? Tricks to MY BELIEF are demoralising to a horse however they do them because a horse always tries to please and keep himself out of trouble. **)

    What I have learnt from Dorrance and Hunt I would never be able to equate into words because it involves a philosophy of understanding that for most is hard to understand because the human likes order and compartmentalisation (does that word exist!!) and horse don't have that, they live in the moment, basically we have to go to their level not drag them down to is feel, timing and balance but it is far more than that to. Many people have those three things but they are still making it happen because they can. If it becomes the horses idea then you create a willing partnership and then it is easy.:)

    Anyway enough from me.:))
  13. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Yeah - what lollipop said **) :))
  14. Merlin

    Merlin Well-known Member

    Originally Posted by smash
    the mere fact that each and every one of you in this thread would be OVER THE MOON if you could go out in a field/arena/paddock and just to be able to walk a figure of 8 minus any gear on your horse, makes your comments hypocritical

    How bout this, I don't even WANT to go out and walk figure of 8's with my horse in the paddock!!!!!! For the people that do, fine, good for them, dosent mean Im any lesser horse person or a hypocrit#(#(

    I think this thread seriously is going round in figure 8's to be honest#( If you don't agree with certain peoples "ideals" on here your a hypocrit#(#(
  15. JustJam

    JustJam Well-known Member

    Merlin, I admire and respect much of what you say, however I don't agree that this thread is 'going round in figure of 8's' lol :p

    To me, this thread is just openly discussing and exploring various ideas, understandings and concepts. And, in my mind, some of the discussion has been beautifully articulated, thought provoking and down right interesting! lol

    Lollipop suggested that the video was liberté - not NH.
    So, I will echo Eoroe's query... what exactly is the difference between Liberté and 'NH'?

    Surely for a 'horse to work at liberté there needs to be a reason for the horse to 'work' at all... and I can only imagine that the 'reason' was/is some form of 'human' control or intervention.

    In it's simplest form, I can see that liberté work might mean 'without gear' - whereas the NH philosophy seems happy to adapt whatever 'gear' is required to work 'naturally' with the horse (Ok, that has done my head in! rofl :confused:)

    But, does that mean that liberté is purely defined by it's lack of mechanical 'aids'?
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  16. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    guys, some dressage test require "i think" 12 or 15 tempi changes, so she has not done anything that others dont train to do "in what ever discipline)
    hypocrites are to those that wish to run someone achievements down while they struggle to achieve anything with their own horse.
    if you fit in that bracket, so be it, if you dont, then that line is not for you.
  17. RustyRidge Clydesdales

    RustyRidge Clydesdales Well-known Member

    **) well said**)
  18. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    I watched a You Tube clip of the Spanish Riding Acadamy, those stallions were relaxed, attentive and both the horse and rider were "together".. not a tail swish, a stiffness anywhere or a worried was truely beautifull. However a completeley different discipline than that of the PP's.

    I believe and I have never done any liberte' work but most horses that are taught liberte' are at first taught restrained (halter or such). Hunt and Dorrance lay their horses down for different reasons and they used ropes on their legs instead of their feet. :))
  19. Babe

    Babe Well-known Member

    FABULOUS video!!! Just loved watching it...sorry havent had time to read all the posts here LOL

    But I thought I had achieved something today by training my 6 month old pup OFFLEAD at agility class today ...without her running off on me...LOL:D

    To do this with a horse...what I would give **)
  20. Merlin

    Merlin Well-known Member

    I don't struggle at all to achieve things with my horses, far from it, and anyone who knows me can verify this :)

    I don't wish to do liberty or NH with my horses, not interested. Hats off tho to those who do and achieve the results they are searching for. Because it isn't my choosen discipline dosen't mean I cannot be envious of those who can achieve wonderful results with their horses, and from this youtube clip, am not here to rip the eye's out of this ladies training methods, but be in aww of what she has achieved**)

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