Discussion in 'Horse Showing and Events' started by Smiley n Me, Nov 8, 2009.
Ktrials - Reports
They are there.
If anyone else managed to get some photos of rider 158 let me know
red XC colours
Results are under Europa Serpentine - no S for serpentine - I made that mistake. Link is here Ktrials - Reports
I did a few stats on this event .... Purely because I thought they were an interesting set ... !!
Here is what I found:
B grade members – 10 riders, 5 completed, 5 eliminated on XC = 50%. (All refusals)
B grade open – 8 riders – 2 completed, 4 eliminated on XC = 50% (all refusals). 2 WD before xc.
C grade snr – 8 riders, 5 completed. 3 eliminated on XC = 37.5% (all refusals).
C grade jnr – 18 riders. 11 completed. 7 eliminated on XC = 39% (All refusals)
C grade open – 15 riders. 11 completed. 3 eliminated on XC = 20%.(2 ref. + 1 @ J1) 1 WD before xc
D grade snr – 20 riders. 15 completed. 3 eliminated xc = 15%. (One missed a jump). 2 Elim on SJ.
D grade Jnr – 21 riders. 12 completed. 9 eliminated on XC = 42.5% (one missed a fence)
D grade open – 26 riders, 16 completed. 5 eliminated on xc = 19.2%. 1 retired. 3 Elim on SJ, 1 WD after dsg.
E grade snr – 20 riders. 13 completed. 3 eliminated on XC = 15%, 2 WD after dsg, 2 elim SJ.
E grade jnr – 17 riders. 10 completed. 3 riders eliminated on xc = 17.6% . 1 Elim in DSG, 1 retired XC, 1 retired SJ, 1 elim SJ.
E grade open – 19 riders, 13 completed, 3 riders eliminated on xc = 15.7%. 1 retired on XC, 1 WD after SJ, 1 Elim on SJ.
TOTAL STARTERS: 182
RIDERS COMPLED EVENT: 117
RIDERS ELIMINATED ON XC: 48
ELIMINATION RATE ON XC: 26.3%
TOTAL COMPLETION RATE: 64.2% of riders who started completed the event.
**Above 2 rates do not add up to 100% because riders withdrew or were eliminated in other phases**
Elimination/ starter rate by grade:
B grade TOT: 9/18 = 50% elim on XC at B grade.
C grade TOT: 13/41 = 31.7% elim on XC at C grade.
D grade TOT: 17/67 = 25.3% elim on XC at D grade.
E grade TOT: 9/56 = 16% elim on XC at E grade.
OPEN RIDERS: 68
OPEN RIDERS ELIMINATED ON XC: 15
XC ELIMINATION RATE OF OPEN RIDERS: 22%
PC RIDERS: 114
PC RIDERS ELIMINATED ON XC: 33
XC ELIMINATION RATE OF PC RIDERS ON XC: 28%
Elimination rate overall is high with just over one quarter of riders starting the event being eliminated on the XC course.
B grade – the top grade - has the worst elimination rate at 50%
Elimination rate decreases with the grade.
Open riders have 6% fewer eliminations on XC than PC riders.
Because it is very obvious the rate of eliminations is much higher as the grade increases it's pretty good evidence to show that the higher the grade, the more likely a rider will be eliminated on XC. Having been around serpie many times in BOTH directions and seeing IMO it is a very fair course the most logical reason I can see for the trend is an increasing number of riders riding above the level at which they are capable of - it is logical that there would be more of these in each class as the grade increases. It's obviously not the only reason but surely if the course was "in general" really that big and riders were all riding at their level then there would be an equally high number of eliminations in each class ... ??
Just food for thought :} .
ETA: is a fall on XC = elimination for PC events now? Looking at the results it doesn't - correct?
Can go on after fall of rider. 2 falls of rider = elim or 1 fall of horse also elim in PC rules.
thats really interesting to see the stats done (you MUST be bored lol) as there have been quite a few Es at serpy all yr... personally i think its actually one of the easier courses! i would love to see what the Es were at and the given reasons by the riders... particularly in the higher grades... its not like it was one jump that was cauing all the Es
there has been much discussion in the eventing safety world RE riders riding above their or their mounts ability would be interesting to see an analysis of all events held across WA and their stats and then tabulated "reasonings" from riders/judges, previous results compared to one event that caused more Es than normal etc
and nope - one fall still doesnt equal E at PC events.... they didnt pass it
good working out sara.
just a note, a course is not designed/built with the thought in mind of trying to knock out as many riders as possible. it is meant to be a challenge but the organising committees dont like to see eliminations on their courses.
no, still 2 falls of rider rule. think it has to be voted on again (not 100% sure if it already has been or has to be for the 1 fall rule to be brought in next year).
i think a good indication of the ones not quite ready to do C grade was the number of riders that took the option at the water jump.
i know there has to be an option for D & C graders to not have to jump into water but the next grade being B where you dont have the option, would have thought a lot more C graders would have gone for just jumping in. (just a thought if you have asperations of going up higher that is)
I am really bored ... Well actually it's a product of procrastination of exam study LOL. It's stats ... kinda like science right?!
It is very true that there has been a lot of discussion on riders riding beyond what they are ready for although I hadn't really noticed it in PC events but here it appears it may be an issue as well? I know all falls at EWA events are reported and documented across Australia but not refusals - interesting. Perhaps if the refusals are dealt with eg. not being allowed to compete at the same grade having had a Tot of 4-6 refusals in your last 3 events we may prevent some accidents?! I'm not sure. I know you will never be able to prevent all accidents because of human (and horse *#) ) error but perhaps encouraging riders to make more informed decisions based on their riding/horse ability rather than being overruled by ambitions it will help prevent accidents?
Although I'm surprised the PC hasn't implemented the 1 fall = elimination ruling I guess I can see the logic in that it is assumed that the most serious accidents occur at higher levels ie. * and above (although I'm not entirely sure thats always true) and because PC rarely runs those levels, it is less applicable? I'm not sure.
I often wonder if the way of the future is to be like some European countries and have "competency" certificates to enable riders to compete at certain levels ie. pass a test to ride in competition or above a particular level? It would surely improve the general standard of riding but be hell to set up an organise and would probably be very unpopular with the riders. I guess pony club have these to compete at national etc. but not for local events (which is fair lol).
hahaha yeh i used to claim that being with my horses was part of my study seeing as i was doing vet... that works too right!? hahaha now i have no excuse, unless i can somehow correlate mining to owning horses?? digging big holes in the ground is like what owning a horse does to my bank balance? lol
anywho - i would also like to see the difference between PC and EWA events... they are much of the same crowd these days with so many up and coming junior riders however. i know there was that big study done on the severity of falls etc across the difffering grades and whilst the risk of a horse rotational fall increased as the grade increased, i actually have a feeling that there were just as many (%wise) serious accidents regardless of grade... but dont quote me on that - it may be the side effects of the caffeine that i have been overdosing on to work and get all my study done for exams!!! lol
perhaps thats a discussion for a new thread seeing as we seem to have hijacked this one!!! hahaha
i think some sort of competancy thing, maybe completed so many events without or limited refusals. ???????
think that rider/horse combinations that have upgraded and are having obvious difficulties, whether stops, falls, non completions etc should also be made to down grade a grade and be revised again after a few events, in both ewa and pc events..
but in the same token i also think that rider/horse combinations that have placed 1 - 3 in a certain number of events (up to a certain grade)should also be strongly encouraged or forced to go up. (nothing worse than seeing the same E, D or C grader winning just about every event they attend and wont go up) hard to put a figure on the number of events tho, either way. only down side to this would be like my daughter for example who has always wanted to give A grade a shot but has not got any expectations of ever going A+ or novice.
yeh i agree - like you have to be graded for EWA 1* and above - you have to complete so many PN events clear and with 50% + etc to go up to 1*... a similar thing for PC would be good, but then i know that my big horse went d grade at his first event, c grade at his second and third and then b grade, in one yr... would have been a little silly to make him stay at d grade when he was training A+ lol
and then with the if you win so many events - my little horse since his accident has only been comfortable up to c grade... we might be able to go b grade but that would be a push. its hard because on the one hand you dont want to "ribbon grab" but then if i took him up it would be dangerous... so when we go out its for a bit of fun
I agree whole-heartedly **) Although I haven't been on the circuit long, in my short/limited time I have *generally* noticed peoples rush and haste to move up the grades, even if they may not be ready... It seems very important that we all be jumping bigger as soon as possible :confused:
Very well said sherreem, what would be the point of having lower jumps in your grade and less challenging when your trying to encourage and educate your horse to go to a higher grade. Personally I love the Serpy course, I think it's all reasonable and got the challenge there thats needed. The new jumps on the course looks great.
This was my first ODE or proper comp in six years and i loved it! Even tho we only did E and didn't do extremely well...but i'm happy we got around without being eliminated
If anyone has photos of me (Number 210, E grade open, Bay horse) can you please PM them to me???
We have to be careful about pushing riders/horse combinations up. My little horse won the series but he won it on his dressage scores not his jumping ability. He had 5 starts at E grade then went up. He is still not experienced enough for testing options which is why we did both the easy options on the X/C. When he has more experience with just going into water then we will start jumping into or over it. Remember there wasn't a lot around to practice over at the beginning of the year. Have a look at his S/J it still isn't established enough to go up.
So let evaluate each combination individually not by the placings, and lets not say people are "ribbon grabbers" because maybe they are just not ready**).
well i had a fun weekend mostly ....am so over getting lost in xc ....least i jumped them all in the right order and completed i guess...jed was such a good boy for his nanna ...thanx to cait to letting me ride him...i was over the moon with dressage i never got a 49 before and with my wonky circles lol ...sj was great ..bit fast but clear and not embarrassing lol ....was fine till i got near the coffin then had a brain snap and couldnt find the frog...really dont get why so many have trouble with the wall tho ...im a sook and have jumped it on three diff horses without a prob ...even did the c grade one at the training day,,,if anyone has anymore pics of 140 please feel free to post them
In case anyone wants the photos are ready to email now so drop me a line if you want copies before they hit the site.
Agree to this * and anyway, if you win you have earnt it and the rest of the people have either had a bad weekend or need to work harder if they want to get into placings (and Im one of the people that needs to work harder on my dressage and x.country at the moment lol!)
do you have any of rider 158? if so please PM them thankyou
The photos look lovely, and there's some really nice looking combinations too!
Just a thought on the elimination rate (which seems high): At PC level, until you get to about B grade, I don't think jumping ability and power really comes into it all that much. Without wishing to denigrate anyone's performances: you don't need a superstar horse to jump between 18" and 2'6. What makes XC a challenge is that the horse has to be happy to jump lots of different looking obstacles, ditches, water etc. When you see a horse refuse at a 2' ditch, he isn't thinking "ooh, jeez, that's a bit big", unless he's 11hh, he usually just doesn't like the look of it. So perhaps some horse and rider combinations could benefit from exposure to different sorts of fences. This doesn't have to be expensive, you can make heaps of different stuff by yourself at home. I think the low height of the lower grades sometimes encourages people to enter very green horses (or riders) in ODEs, when it is not really the height that is the challenging part. Just a thought.
My other thought is that at B grade and up, and maybe C grade a little bit too, PC courses like Serpentine can be tough, because they are windy and twisty. You often have very little time to get a decent approach and distance to a fence, whereas some of the EFA courses are much more open, so you can see what's coming a bit better. I think that at a B Grade like Serpentine, you have to be able to ride the fences pretty accurately, and get your horse to a decent take-off spot. While a horse can go from pretty much anywhere over an 18" jump, you can't flat miss him to 3' and expect him to claw his way over it every time. So sometimes, perhaps riders assume that because they have C grade under control, B grade should be no worries, when in fact the jumps are going to be more challenging for the horse, and you have to make sure you ride them correctly, because of the increased height.
It seems like the trend is for PC courses to become more and more technical for the height. Some C grade courses are now much more technical than some PN tracks I used to see. So because of this, at the lower grades, height doesn't come into it so much any more. Just because you can jump a 3' showjumping fence doesn't mean you can event B grade.
I always liked Serpentine, but I actually wouldn't chose it to upgrade a horse to B grade (for example). The twisty track backs them off, and they have to be very bold to see a fence a few strides out, and take it on. If it was me, I'd upgrade at a more open course, like some of the EFA ones.
Just my thoughts...
**) Absolutely agree!