Sabino

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by oakover, Sep 20, 2009.

  1. oakover

    oakover Well-known Member

    Just wondering about Sabinos. I have noticed it has become the hip thing to name a horse with lots of white a Sabino. It is my understanding though that Sabino is an actual colour pattern and just because you have a horse with a blaze and four white stockings, that doesn't make it a Sabino. There are rules to a Sabinos pattern and it can be colur tested for.
    So why is everyone naming their horses/ponies sabino when they are in actual fact just a horse with loads of white. I own 3 ponies that have 4 white stockings and white faces and none are Sabino. If you have a look at Samms little mare Puddin in the breeding thread, she would actually be a Sabino because of her leg markings coming up past her hocks and into points that look roan and she has white under her chin and white belly markings or roanings. She would be a classic example.
    Can someone with actual knowledge please explain this? I just find it a little annoying.
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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2009
  2. samm

    samm Gold Member

    Telltale signs of sabino are spearing on the stockings and bottom lip mark,possible belly splashes and flecking.
    Pud is a really good example of sabino.
     
  3. sil

    sil Gold Member

    "I have noticed it has become the hip thing to name a horse with lots of white a Sabino."

    That's because largely a horse with lots of white is recognised as carrying Sabino :)

    And you are correct about being able to genetically test for Sabino, but only ONE type out of several - so while you can positively identify a horse is carrying Sabino, you can't exclude it from being Sabino.
     
  4. ArabAtHeart

    ArabAtHeart Well-known Member

    Taken from book 'Horse Colour Explained'

    Sabino Quick Guide
    •Sabino is a dominant pattern of white patcheswhich appear to run vertically up the legs and under bellyneck, accompanied by large ragged splashes.
    •The head has a large blaze and chinspot.
    •Sabino occurs in nearly evry breed of horse in minimal form as normal white markings.
    •Sabino is frequently confused with overo and roan.

    Features of Sabino
    •A patch (or patches) present on the under-side of the neck
    •Body white appears to run vertically up the body, terminating in irregular peaks or splashes of diminishing size
    •Chinspot
    •White legs with white hooves and at least one white leg with diminishing spear or ^ pointed edge
    •Ticking
     
  5. Remaani

    Remaani Guest

    Absolutely.

    Katie is a Sabino, although hard to see she has ticking thru the coat, not excessive though.

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    And this girl, Flirt is NOT a Cremello, she is Max Sabino, lol i just haven't tested her for her Base Colour yet, she has blue eyes but they are different to the eyes on my Crem. (the foal pictured was by a bay stallion)

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    (the one at the back, in front is a "real" Cremello, lol!)

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  6. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

  7. oakover

    oakover Well-known Member

    Thanks everyone, glad I didn't upset anyone with my comments but was interested. I've seen Katie and she has heaps of ticking.
    I think that perhaps people have gotten confused about what a Sabino is and decided to name their horses that as well not knowing quite fully as to what is required for them to actually be one.
     
  8. Tintara

    Tintara Well-known Member

    Here is an easily understandable explanation written by Leanne Owens who has done a fair amount of research into these types of genes.


    There are four pinto genes - Tobiano as well as three overo pattern genes. Frame/Overo Lethal White is the overo pattern gene that most people think of when they hear 'overo' but both Sabino and Splashed White are also 'overo pattern' pinto genes and can produce large patches of white, sometimes almost completely white horses (such as the 'extreme sabinos') and only one form of Sabino can be DNA'd for, and there appear to be many sabino genes, and you can't DNA for Splash yet. Although Tobiano and Frame/OLWS are fairly easy to keep out of a stud book based on solid coloured horses since both can be DNA'd, and Tobiano almost always expresses and Frame/OLWS doesn't stay in minimal for all that often either, Sabino and Spash are already in almost all stud books in minimal form.

    If you have a horse with a crooked blaze or crooked snip or a blaze that widens at the bottom or a blue eye, that will be Splash and it is capable of producing a very obvious pinto horse. Any horse with white 'falling off' the centre line of the face is likely to be Splash. If you have a horse with a white underlip or jagged top socks, that is Sabino, and that is also capable of producing a loudly coloured horse. There are other indicators of Splash and Sabino in minimal form, but they are the most obvious. Splash and Sabino can blow out into 'excess white' which includes belly splashes with underlying pink skin. Splash can produce blue eyes (Sabino, Tobiano and Frame/OLWS do not appear to produce blue eyes) and the typical full white head of a loud Splash. I have a loud Splash pure Arabian mare, with two blue eyes and lots of white on her head, legs and up into her body - her parents were minimal Splash and Sabino showing no more than a small sock, snip and star.
     
  9. Em

    Em Well-known Member

    This litte mare that I bred I have said was minimal sabino. You can see the ticking extending up her leg and it was in her coat very lightly, she also had a lower lip marking which you can't see. It comes from her grandmother - flaxen chestnut with blaze to lower lip, a couple of socks and some belly splashing. Her mother also showed minimal sabino with the lower lip marking but not the flecking. **)

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  10. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    I have originally registered this mare as a roan, but unlike most roans, her white ticking is even all the way through her colour (she doesnt have a dark head).
    I have been trying to figure out the best way to get her tested, does anyone have a link to a site where I can sign her up for a SB1 test, in Australia? Have only found sites overseas. Or which place would you recommend?
    Here is a pic of her, will try and get better ones on sunday, my camera is pretty dodgy (or more likely the person holding it ;) )
    After putting this colt on the ground my suspicions are leaning even more to her being Sabino.

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    I'll have a go of cropping a close up of her ticking, fingers crossed.......

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    or maybe a splash??
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  11. Tintara

    Tintara Well-known Member

    Def not roan; I would say sabino too and maybe also splash, especially if she has blue eyes.

    The lab at Qld Uni is the only one I know of here that does coat colour tests but I don't know if they do as many as some of the US labs. Trouble is though that they will only deal with breed societies so you'll need to go back through the paints if you want the tests done here. The labs in the US will deal direct with individual owners which is why so many of us now use them instead plus they are much cheaper (and quicker too - it takes months to get ASH DNA results back or used to).
     
  12. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    hmmm yes I have tried going through the breed ass for the SB1 test. Better to do it on my own!
    Lace doesnt have any blue eyes, but this colt has. And the previous colt she had to Spin On Command had a partial blue eye. So she certainly throws them.
     
  13. Kate O

    Kate O New Member

    Edited to add - this is Leanne O., Kate's mother... I posted without realising I was signed in as Kate O., sorry about that!

    The three overo pattern genes are Frame (Overo Lethal White), Sabino and Splashed White. There appear to be a number of Sabino genes, only one can be tested. All can appear in minimal form with almost no white on the horse at all. All tend to interact to maximise each other.

    Sabino wants to centre white down the middle of the face and onto the lower lip, Splash wants to pull white off the side of the face; Sabino wants to pull white away from the eyes, Splash wants to pull it down over the eyes - so a classic sign of Splash + Sabino is a horse with the tell tale 'curve' of white near the eyes as Sabino pulls it away and Splash pulls the edges back down, demonstrated beautifully by one of the horses above.

    Splash wants flat top socks, Sabino wants jagged top socks or stockings, Frame doesn't want white on the legs at all - so when you see an Overo with any white below knees and hocks, you know that there is a gene there apart from Frame (if there is any Frame at all - just always test for that, though, as OLWS is the lethal white gene) - Frame/OLWS does not put white on the lower legs so the horse must have Sabino, Splash or Tobiano.

    If a horse has blue eyes and isn't a double cream dilute or cream + pearl dilute, then it has Splash. If a horse has a crooked blaze, crooked star, even a slightly offset snip, these are all signs of Splash which works to pull the white to one side. When Splash maximises (usually in homozygous form + sabino) you can get the full white face and 'dipped in white' lower body, along with blue eyes. Some maximised Splash horses are deaf. The vast majority of Splash horses are not deaf.

    Little was known about these genes when Ms Gower wrote her wonderful book and I'm sure she would update some chapters with more recent knowledge.

    Splash is in almost all breeds: Thoroughbred, Arabian, Welsh, QH, ASH, etc. as is Sabino. Frame/OLWS originated in the US mustangs and was only in Paints and QHs until bred out into other breeds such as part bred Arabians. Tobiano was a British/European colour gene. All of the colour genes are safe to breed with except Frame which is lethal in homozygous form.

    Maximum white, a form of sabino, can be selectively bred for in Arabians, Thoroughbreds and others, using minimally marked Sabino/Slash horses until the white maximises, then it has a tendency to stay in maximised form, such as The Bride and her son.

    Most horses that are 'loud sabino' are also splash. Once you recognise the signs, it is unmistakable. The horse above with the curving of white around the eyes is a classic example of Splash and Sabino - breed this one back to a Splash + Sabino horse and you can get amazing overo coat patterns without needing to use Frame/OLWS.
     
  14. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    what is the horse 'above' that your mentioning Kate O? no pics in your post?
     
  15. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

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    this is the other side of her face, so although her face has a heap of white, there is colour around both eyes. do you think splash???
     
  16. Kate O

    Kate O New Member

    Kate O here now, not Leanne O.

    Remaani's horse has the curve to the eye that is sabino fighting splash, Siren.

    Just wanted to point out that all horses that have been posted in this thread have sabino and splash genes. Also, if a horse has a white marking ANYWHERE, and isn't tobiano or frame, and doesn't show signs of splash - then it carries a form of sabino. It may not be SB1 that it is carring, but there HAS to be a gene in play for a horse to have a white marking on it. There could be hundreds of different forms of sabino.

    Siren - has your mare been tested for frame (OLW)? Or is it not possible from her breeding?
    ETD - your mare is without a doubt sabino and splash. See how she looks like she has dipped her nose into a bucket of milk, and that has made the white on her face bottom heavy? The way her stocking cuts off with a really flat top, and of course the big masses of white on her body, coming from the ground creeping up her belly - all that is splash. Her eye is coloured from sabino, fighting the splash, and of course her roaning and the jaggered edges are from sabino as well. Just would like to know if she is frame as well - I don't really see anything there that would suggest it though. Nice mare and foal, too btw!

    Kate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  17. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    OLW- No she hasnt, that is a whole other story, she was supposed to when I registered her, but for some reason it didnt happen. only found out a couple of days ago. Her Sire, is negative, and her dam is too old to have been tested, and as far as I know is no longer with us.
    The colt in the photo, his Sire is Negative.

    She is just a phenomenal mare to look at, the photos dont do her justice. Will find out everything I can DNA wise, because she is certainly worth the effort, although not broken, she is very very smart, her foals are dong very well in anything to do with stock.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  18. Kate O

    Kate O New Member

    The foal on the other hand does look frame...so she may carry it.

    In saying that, he may not carry it. It can get hard to tell when they max out like that, and you can't see how the white moves anymore, and what shapes and edges the white has to it. But IMO the foal is frame, and if the sire is neg, that means the mare is as well.

    Kate.
     
  19. Siren

    Siren Well-known Member

    Sorry Kate O, the sire is Overo, just doesnt carry the lethal gene. **) so the foal could well be frame, will have him tested too.
     
  20. Kintara

    Kintara Well-known Member

    Frame IS the lethal overo gene :)
     

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