pulling back when tied up??

Discussion in 'Problem Horses' started by Skittle, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. saltriver

    saltriver Guest

    As with Geejay, we use the high wire first, to teach the horses to tie and stand, we use rope halters on most horses.
    but if i have a known hanger, we have some special halters that are made from seat belt webbing, they can pull back till there hearts content and not hurt their necks on the high wire.
    they give it up pretty soon because tying them to a high wire teaches them to move there feet and give to pressure.

    And we always use a bowline knot,on the halter and the high line - nothing else
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  2. ZaZa

    ZaZa Guest

    I couldn't agree more B & T. **)

    One of my horses does not solid tie. She simply doesn't get it.
    After seeing the injuries to the horse and damage to the gear that the 1/2 dozen or so attempts have caused,
    I will not, nor will I allow anyone else, to solid tie her again.
    She wasn't taught the concept as a youngster and now, at 12, I think (in her case anyway), it's too late.
    Like B&T's horse, she is ok in cross ties though.

    My other horse solid ties no problems.

    Every now and a gain we have to resign ourselves to just accepting little idiosyncrasies (sp) and work around them.
     
  3. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    For those of us who agist, we often don't have the right (safe) facilities to tie solid. I doubt the property owner would be happy to see bits of his fencing attached to a runaway horse.
    But I've found that tying through two loops of twine instead of one can be helpful, as it's much harder for the horse to break. They usually lean right back on it for a second or two, then go 'ah, whatever' and give up.
     
  4. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    I have seen plenty of pine posts dangling from horses heads even though they were attached to twine also.

    Ted will lean right back if he gets a spook (doesn't happen often) and the second he feels the pressure of the rope he loses it and simply does not give up. I don't have cross ties but have used them in the past and he is perfect in them. I can drop the rope directly under his head on the ground also and he won't move, providing it's not on grass lol.

    I like the idea of the wire for my young un, but would never risk tying Ted to anything solid again.

    Each individual horse will react differently to it, if they are introduced to it at a young age OR if they are a sensible enough older horse then go for it. But if you don't know the horse and how it will react I would certainly hesitate solid tying it.

    I generally either ground tie Ted now or loop the rope over the post twice as Geejay said. Doing this for the first time you try solid tying a horse is a good idea, because if they turn out to be a total spak with it (like Mr Ted) *#) you can safely and easily release them, whereas if they are tied up and have totally lost the plot you'll have to cut the rope. Don't forget that they are flight animals!
     
  5. Shmoo

    Shmoo Well-known Member

    I've been sitting here and can't do it anymore!!*#) Get ready for an essay:D

    I am one of those that tie SOLID, We have to and are probebly one of the few on this forum that derive their living from our horses that work in the Public arena all the time, so here is my perspective on tieing up.
    Now remember the horses we work with are twice the size of most horses and are all halter broke, tie up trained, leg retraint trained and pushed around before they are big enough to put up a fight which can lead to injury of us, them and gear.
    Ours know no better and it would be irresponsible for us not to as the public are more important then the horses (I wonder sometimes but that is the reality of it and the way the law sees it, so we have to make every attempt to secure our animals, much like a maintained fence on the property containing animals from running into traffic.)

    To us a horse that doesn't tie is dangerous and useless for what we require it for, if one of ours pulled back and got loose (god forbid!!!), the horse (if all ends well) would immediately be tied ASAP to a snubbing post for a few hours a day until it was observed not to challenge the halter consistently. Then the horse would be tied to our truck where all our horses are tied (solid) and go through the same process again. As others have said with a neck strap and rope halter with no metal fittings. That would be our responsibility. If the horse proved to be inconsistent we would not use the horse again in public.
    It has never (touch wood) happened because we take great care in making as sure of it as we can, but that is our self imposed rule.

    It is now up to you to make the decision to where you want to go from here.
    Do you want the horse to tie properly?
    If you do and you don't have the correct safe equipment or expertise, then take the horse to someone that has knowing that there will always be the risk when a mature animal with a bad habbit wants to fight with the tie up procedure.

    Or can you live with it knowing that every time the horse gets away that you are further cementing the fact it can.
    I know people that just have a horse at home and tieing up perhaps never interferes with the day to day workings as they "don't get out much"
    If you have your horse at home and tie up when in an area that it can't access areas that will endanger lives then I suppose you may be able to get away with it fairy incident free.

    If you have a metal tie up rail that is cemented (A lot of cement) into the ground then rather the twine, I would prefer to have the rope looped around a few times so the horse doesn't get the snap release action of something breaking (remember the instant release is what "trains" the horse to pull back and there is nothing that teaches a horse quicker to further ingrain any behavior) With the rope looped it slides and slows the imprinting of the instant release. Use a rope halter and rope with no metal fittings.

    Do you show? If so I hope you would do the right thing and have yards to contain it as you can't trust it to tie to the float or anywhere else so, your responsibility would be to yard it or just hold him in hand. What a pain.

    I know that horses get away from time to time at shows and run about and don't injure innocents, PURE LUCK.... that they don't and also lucky that the horse is with other horses and is surrounded by horse people that you would hope for the most part would be able to handle a horse in an area that more often then not is actually fenced off with the gate to the road closed. (Doesn't mean for a moment that the luck would run out one day and the horse..not meaning to gallops over the top of a stroller with a kid in it that mum is keeping an eye on while grooming older kids pony)

    Hmmm I suppose that would be seen as a very black and white way to see it.
    The bottom line is that having horses is a huge responsibility in itself and it is highlighted by my blunt comments above. There is no "Yeah but" ...that is how it is.

    (Oh and X tieing is not tieing up at all, it teaches the horse nothing and causes other behavioral problems due to the lack of release at the horses head...the horse give to one side and then meets pressure from the other and so on. If you must X tie please don't leave the horse for long periods, do what you have to and then get the horse out.)

    OK now RANT over:))
     
  6. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    AMEN and so sayeth I
     
  7. Halligan

    Halligan Well-known Member

    Im' a solid tie person too
     
  8. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Here is a question for the "tie solid" at all times crowd (which I completely respect by the way). How do you know that any thing you tie your horse solid to is actually solid and not rotted in the ground or not set probably in concrete so when the horse pulls back solid tied it rips the entire thing out of the ground and bolts off with the entire hitching rail still attached to it and is not only loose but is now dragging something?

    I have seen this happen twice (1 x hitching rail and post and 1 x bit of float + floating yards) and at the time I would have rated a loose horse without a hitching rail/part of a float+yards attached probably less dangerous!
     
  9. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Hmmm...yes, RR has a very valid point.

    When I first had my mare broken in, I was advised to tie solid and so I always did. I even checked with the owner of my agistment centre at the time whether the rail I was about to tie her to was solid. He replied that it would take more than a ton to pull the tie rail apart...pfttt. My less-than-half-a-ton mare got spooked, pulled back and pulled the rail straight off the posts, dragging me with it!

    If you tie solid, make sure you know it is safe to do so!
     
  10. Shmoo

    Shmoo Well-known Member

    Because I have installed facilities that are purpose built for the job. I have a 4'' Galvanised steel welded hitching rail that has about 2T of concrete set it the bottom of it. The posts are set in the crete and unless it rusts through (Which is what I call a maintenance issue and should be picked up LONG before it becomes suspect) you would need a backhoe to remove it. I also tie my horses to my truck, the truck has 3/4" tie up cleats welded to the tray rated to about four ton. (I wouldn't tie solid to floats they are too light, tie solid to a big tree or hold your horse if it's suspect when out.) Back that up with a tie up post made of 8" bore casing that slots into the 2 Ton of concrete that is in the middle of my round yard and I think my tie up facilities are fairly good. In my case as said, my horses weigh up to about 1200kg so there is no way I would fluff around with piddly facilities.
    That is also the reason that I mentioned in my post if you don't have them, then go to someone who has or.. here's an idea invest in your own.
    The other thing is that once your horse does tie solid consistently from a baby age, you have very little chance of the horse will ever challenge the rope, my oldest horse is 28ish now and has NEVER attempted to try, my others are 21, an 18 and again have Never tried.
    That's the beauty when they know no better**)

    But ultimately this is what "I" would do, I haven't had any problems from the many, many high pressure situations that we have to tie our horses at, (Next to freight train lines, helicopter pads, and busy Fremantle Port to name a few) Ever seen those old western movies where the horses are tied to those overhead lines (Geegays very valid tie up system;)) and gun noises are going off? How many of those horses get away? While we weren't there I would hazard to guess that back the the gun shoot'n days out in the wild west you would damn well hope your horse was tought to tie properly!! The proof to me is in the eating and anyone who has has to deal with these situations would say the same. Yeeeeehaaaa!
     
  11. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Can I ask for a run down on the construction of one of these overhead lines? (the highwire )

    for future construction purposes :)

    Thankyou
     
  12. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    That all sound good Shmoo but what do you do if you are not at home and how can you guarantee the construction of anything that you come across that is not yours to maintain? Trees should not be trusted either as they can have termite or rot damage?
     
  13. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    Retro. thats like asking why should i get out of bed because everything outside of bed will kill me, then someone tells you about bed bugs and that sends you into a fit.

    Nothing is 100% safe, but tying solid is far safer MOST times that tying to string.

    I would say use your god given commen sence to assess the tie up situation, but common sence is rare in deed these days.

    Give the rail or tree a good shove yourself, give it as good visual and tyre kick inspection as you can, you can do little more.

    If its not safe, then dont tie the horse to it.

    If it proves unsafe despite your best efforts then its an accident.
     
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Actually I disagree with this. I am all for horses to be trained to tie correctly but I do see why for instance a lot of agistment owners insist on agistee's tying to twine when on the agistment property.

    Lets look at this scenario....
    You have an agistment property, well maintained, good facilities and the property is 100% fenced with a double gate system to get out onto the road....so if I horse got out of its confinement at the property it would be surrounded by fences. Therefore here are your choices:

    1. Tie horse to twine: If horse spooks for pulls back horse will break twine and would be loose on the property. If necessary horse's actions could be assessed to see if it need to be sent back for tying up re-education.
    2. Tie horse solid: If horse spooks you have the risk of damaging facilities or horse serious hurting itself. Therefore there is a risk of maintenance bills or vet bills or horse death.

    Needless to say I can see the argument for the use of twine in this scenario.

    So in your world of nothing is 100% safe, - true, but nothing is 100% right and there are arguments for and against. A horse should always be taught to tie properly in the ways described by Saltriver and GeeJay. But the management of a horse "tied up" in its day to day happenings depends on the environment and the associated risks if a pulling back event occurs.....that is actually commonsense!
     
  15. hey, even "conditioned" horses are unpredictable:)) it is an animal and can do damn stupid things because of its LACK OF REASONING. So all good when no one gets hurt.
    Bad luck happens though, but.....
    the chances of a "conditioned" horse to stay put when tied up solid are minimal in comparisson to a horse "conditioned" to try to pull back tied to a string.
    I would rather see a horse break its neck challenging the rope than getting loose and killing or injuring some one in a process. We tie up the "smart ones" to an excavator:D and it wins all the time! Lol! Don't give a horse an opportunity and it won't think of taking it.:) In other words, every time it gets loose breaking a twine, he will be more determined to do it again, coz he knows he can.
    lena:)
     
  16. saltriver

    saltriver Guest

    general construction:

    2 trees solid in nature about 10 feet apart.
    the trees should have branches to hold the rope or wire up,
    height depends on trees available but recommended to be above horses ears.

    with a loop in the rope half way , we use a swivel chain , or hobble chain to allow movement and stops the lead rope twisting.

    I will take some photos.

    most important part is the bowline knot you tie with to the high wire.
    does every one know how to tie a bowline??????
     
  17. We tie up the "smart ones" to an excavator and it wins all the time! -Colibanqh.

    :confused: you tie Horses to an Excavator??
    I cant see how that is a safe practice!

    very informative posts from geejay and saltriver though**)
     
  18. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    But what if it is going to get loose on a smallish property with full fencing and probably not hurt anything? The same scenario could happen if someone riding a horse fell off and the horse was loose? Or a horse jumped out of its yard? I can just see a broken neck or broken facilities as more expensive than a horse loose in an environment that is still contained? I could 100% see if you had a horse tied next to a highway with no containment and if it got loose it could cause major damage and you would take the broken neck before the broken motorist....but at a property in a contained environment? I can just see the argument of all those agistment owners out there and most will sight this as their reason for using twine!
     
  19. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Why? What is the difference of an excavator and a hitching rail or a truck? At least that is one piece of equipment that you could trust trust to be strong.:confused:

    Or do you...sigh...have an axe to grind?
     
  20. Excuse me??? just because I dont think tying a horse to an excavator is safe practice that makes me an axe weilder does it??
    How rude!
    [​IMG]

    I can only imagine the damage a horse that was fighting against being hard tied would do to itself!

    Whats the difference between an excavator and a hitching rail! PMSL! what a rediculous question.
     

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