Philippe Karl (Classical Dressage) is coming to Perth!

Discussion in 'Horse Showing and Events' started by CDA, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. Arfy

    Arfy Active Member

    No problemo,

    I think is definately like to watch at least 1 day, can't see more due to time off work required. I'd like to see phillipes technique on some more advanced horses than his last demonstration, which had a lot of initial teaching of basics. How many of the clinics do you think phillipe himself will take?
  2. ashka

    ashka Well-known Member

    We have so few opportunities in Perth to extend our knowledge without having to incur the expense and time to travel to do so. The fact that someone like Philippe Karl is making the trip to our sleepy backwater is an achievement in itself, and a credit to those people who are passionate enough to make something like this happen.

    For those who have questioned the international airfares, it would be highly unconconventional for those in the corporate world to travel such a gruelling flight in economy...even in the not-for-profit organisations I have worked for, we would always ensure our guests would travel in the most comfortable way possible for long-haul flights - particularly if that guest was elderly. It is a courtesy you extend in order to ensure your visitor is refreshed and able to perform as expected during their stay.

    I would have loved to attend at least one of the days, but unfortunately I don't have access to childcare to make that happen.

    Edited to add that I would imagine the spectator fee is profit at this stage though. My guess is that Equitana has funded (or sort sponsorship for) the Australian airfares.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  3. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Thanks for the reply CDA, I have actually already met, watched and listened to PK. I have his book and video etc. But I just found the whole PK experience and PK himself disappointing. The reasons I found him disappointing were for the following reasons:

    1. I have met some super teachers in all walks of my life and the common attribute they all have is the ability to empower you. Well I found PK very disempowering to the people he was coaching, I found him someone that ridicules them for the purposes of self promotion.

    2. His complete and utter obsession with his own theories to a point he talks of his theories as "truths", which they arent, there is no such thing as one truth in all aspects of any living creature whether it be horse or human or any art for which dressage is. A good teacher or philosopher, which PK portrays himself is one that never narrows the spectrum of truth, that listens and is always re-evaluating their stance on anything....this is not PK.

    3. When I went along to listen to PK he went on and on bagging out every other type of training system besides his own. Anyone that has ever had anything to do with horses knows that within any type of training system there is good and bad plus a multitude of difference, somethings work for some horses, some things dont etc. This is commonsense, therefore to bag out and ridicule with the ferocity of PK just turns you off.

    4. He is obviously passionate about his PK thing but you would think that to go along with this passion would be a drive to share and this is obviously not the case. He will share for a PRICE and that is it and this makes me very cynical about his intentions, is it for profit to make money or does he actually care about the sport he considers can be improved so much. There is a lack of any sense charity about PK, he is not charitable to those talented and keen that could do justice to his methods and he is certainly not appearing charitable to the horse by doing so.

    5. Lack of respect for competition. Competition is what truly tests a rider and your training. I could produce a perfectly edited video and portray myself and my young horse at a very advanced level because he technically can do all the movement but that is at home and in a way that I know he would find it easy....but this is not really the case. He is currently a novice competition horse about to take the step up to elementary because this is what he is truly capable of in terms of strength and gymnastic ability that I can demonstrate outside of my property, in a competition environment which challenges your true skills and connection with your horse. I have also found the feedback from judges and their critical eye so helpful and empowering. By putting myself and my training out there for all to see it strengthens my mental riding and training skills all of which is so positive to confidence. PK and his wingmen should be out there showing everyone how it is done, inspiring people by proving how much better his methods of training a horse are.

    6. The lack of PK teachers in France - I have been looking at PK's website and I am surprise by the lack of PK accredited teachers in his home country (I could see only 2 in the whole of France) or even in surrounding countries....this makes me very cynical again, if he is so great and his methods so wonderful why arent people flocking to guess is going to be because of points 1-5?

    So I guess that is why I have trouble swallowing PK, his school of lightness and everything else he portrays himself as......because to me he doesnt add up and leaves me quite cynical. I certainly think some of his ideas are very useful but there is no way I could ever become a PK devotee, because there are heaps of great ideas and teachers out there to meet. But CDA, good on you, give it a go but my advice to acceptance would be the following....even drag PK over to the computer screen to read this when he comes to Perth *#):

    1. Dont ever insinuate superiority in any training method, humbleness is what gets people to listen
    2. Be charitable, talent is what you always want to help not necessarily the people with a lot of money
    3. Compete - show confidence in your methods by putting them on display, test your skills and head in the competition environment, competition is healthy! The only way to change the sport is to ENGAGE with it!

    Best of luck anyway and I hope you have a great time!
  4. intendeli

    intendeli Well-known Member

    retroremedy - agreed abolutely ..
    i too went along last time he was here and listened with an open mind ...and felt totally disenchanted .. all i saw was a clever salesman who made fun of people in his 'cute' french way ...
    there is nothing really new in his training methods .. many top trainers use the same techniques, just not packaged and marketed as well as he has sold his school of lightness theory ...

    but each to their own ... as long as no horses or family members are going hungry to pay for it all .. then as long as it makes people happy, and PK can line his pockets some more .. i am sure he will keep coming back . maybe even first class next time :)
  5. CDA

    CDA Well-known Member

    No PK is not teaching anything new - he is teaching something that is on the brink of being lost.

    Just as you see PK as a business and someone who makes money by promoting his system and not supporting other systems...I see German FN trainers the same way, except the added part of it is the breeding of so many world class horses who dont make it as they break down and disappear in the system.

    Each to their own. For me, this way of training a horse is everything I could ever want.

    This thread is about people coming to spectate at the clinic...

    Hope some of you will come along :))
  6. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    See this is what PK does, you cannot put ALL of anything in the same basket! Also I think the German equivalent of the EA ie the FN is full of so of so many different trainers with so many variation and many of them TRADITIONAL European techniques (hey PK is only coming from his FRENCH perspective, "classical dressage" has many varieties depending on which part of the world you want to look at), some of them with more modern or morphed elements! No one trainer is the same!!

    I must admit this gave me a bit of a smirk because at least they can disappear from something ie competition! I guess I could be cheeky and say...well maybe they have all be purchased by PK devotees who have taken them home to train and never compete and hence are never seen again!!

    And that is super cool by me, as I said, best of luck with it all! :))
  7. CDA

    CDA Well-known Member

    Thanks RR! :)
  8. myst

    myst Active Member

    phillippe karl

    Retroremedy, that was a wonderful explanation. There are really terrific trainers out there, always encouraging and they are the best in the world. Competition is a guide to training and I get a little suspicious that a lot of so called Classical riders won't put themelves out there. Perhaps they need to show us their way is as good or better but they never do. Wonder why????';'
  9. CDA

    CDA Well-known Member

    why? because it is the whole system that I have a problem with - this includes what the training scale is, how the judges are marking (to the training scale), the actual tests themselves etc etc.

    I am someone who at this time in my life, believes that I am not willing to put myself and my horse up for scrutiny unless I feel we are close to PERFECT. This may be some years away lol.

    I am not one to go out and get 70%.... for me it has to be much much much better than that, and until I feel I am doing it 100% at home ALL THE TIME I will not compete.

    in saying that some of the teacher candidates are competitors and EFA coaches - good on them for giving it a go, but it is something that I am unwilling to do at this time.
  10. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    I have had a look at PK's "levels" and truly they dont appear that much radically different?! Also how could you knock a prelim or novice test, the odd 20, 15 or 10m circle is as hard as it gets? A nice contact and nice forward rhythmical gait and smooth transitions up and down cant invoke too many issues?

    Yeah but if you put yourself out there as a coach or someone of standing in training horses you should if you want some credibility. It is like putting yourself out as a surgeon but refusing to operate in front of anyone, it just doesnt create much trust.

    Also one of the most well known barriers to anyone wanting to achieve any goal is the quest for perfection. What is that saying "the artist that aims for perfection in everything achieves nothing"??!!

    When you see a horse that scores high, Tortilis etc, I am proud of my rare 70% be honest I am just proud if my horse works well and tries his best and I had fun. I have been alive long enough to be fully aware that 100% success all the time in anything is unachievable, and such an expectation is potentially physically and psychologically destructive.
  11. TobanMokey736

    TobanMokey736 Well-known Member

    retroremedy = **)**)**):}
  12. Tallarook

    Tallarook Well-known Member

    How very sad this thread has turned to this, CDA - i dont know why you even bother with this site.

    Best wishes with your training - enjoy :)
  13. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    It hasn't turned to anything other than a discussion on a discussion forum. If this was meant to be anything other than a discussion post them maybe it should have gone under news or products and services?

    I also reckon the 3000 thread views hadn't done the clinic any harm!

    PK is a great thing to discuss as he is pretty contoversial and I think you will find he likes being that way!
  14. sil

    sil Gold Member

    This is a thread on the actual clinic and has been placed in the horse showing and events section. I would have thought it would make sense to be discussing the actual event in here, and if you want to debate the PK method, to raise a new thread in the training section.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  15. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    But then Sil if you want to play by your rules I could say to you, why are you posting this particular post because it has nothing with the actual clinic either, it is just your why are you posting it here and not in...hmmm open discussions?*#)

    I dont think there has been much negative about this post except you guys that want to come on and say it is sad and some how criticise what has been discussed. To me it is all good, I hope people go along, have a listen - especially the free option as that is really great...and I also wish CDA all the best. I dont agree with some of CDA person thoughts on showing or the German training system but that is perfectly fine by me and the way the world is....and thank god for that! *#)
  16. Babe

    Babe Well-known Member

    Im realy enjoying the discussion tho, great to hear everyones views...and Im sure there are others that feel the same?**)

    Thanks CDA for answering all the questions so thoughtfully, I did want to know about the competition side of things too:)
  17. Lauren

    Lauren Gold Member

    **) I wonder what would happen if I went into a showing thread on say Baldivis Show Jumping (I chose that one as I'm a member of the club and know the organiser who is a stockie won't care) and wrote 3 pages of, This show is to expensive, another show is better etc..

    I don't know anything about PK but it seems a shame to ruin the thread.. I hope it doesn't end up closed :(

    And CDA.. wow, I actually enjoy reading your posts. You don't lose your temper and you always have a polite answer **)
  18. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    Gah I had written a long reply and it timed out :(. Now i have to remember what I wrote!

    I am really enjoying this thread! I don't think it has become nasty at all. I am neither for nor against, but like to keep an open mind so that I have as many tricks up my sleeve as possible things to try/adapt to situation/horse.

    RR - I enjoyed your reply, it raised some valid points and I agree with your philosophy regarding competition. For me competition provides me with goals to strive towards with my horse. Direction even. I have found this very valuable for my past horses. It also inspires me to continue training, even when it's cold or wet or hot or windy. Perhaps that makes my character weak, but knowing I have a test in 2 weeks encourages me to get in the saddle and train my horse to increase strength, fitness, flexibility, and education, as of course I want to do as well as possible! And RR is dead right about competitions challenging your training acheivements, and riding ability (including sport psychology, ring craft, training/management to achieve peak performance on a set day etc). I find all this very positive.

    I do think that it depends how you go into the competition, and I have found my own philosophy has changed (with the biggest influence being sitting on a stbred who will score low due to our lack of talent anyway, so I found myself competing against myself more and more). If you go into a comp thinking you are the best there, your methods of training/riding are superior, you will win for sure, and if you don't then it is the judges/corruption/FEI/system's fault then you are setting yourself up for a very unenjoyable experience in the competition world. If you go in with a more humble attitude, wanting to showcase your riding/training/horse to the best of your ability, with the hope of getting a PB (which can be a score/placing/points/or just beating someone who usually does very well), knowing that you have done your best to get the horse ready for the challenge and set them up for success, but that some things are out of your control, then you are setting yourself up for a MUCH more enjoyable competition experience, where you know how well you succeeded by the final salute regardless of the scores, and the judges comments can be taken with salt if you disagree (I dont find this often) or used to improve your riding/training for next time.

    I think competition is a great way to get a trainer's name out and about, as well as their horse's name.

    So continuing on from the comment about classical riders often not competing, why is this? Surely a horse from any training system and perform the movements. What is it about the tests that are so bad? Is it the order of movements? Or the fact that movements need to be performed at set locations around the arena and not just when the horse offers it up (genuine question).

    A horse at a competition level is different from a horse training at that level. My horse can do flying changes, half pass, extentions, collection, walk piros etc - IN TRAINING, but I cannot yet expect him to be strong enough for an entire test, and to perform these well on cue - at the moment it is asked for if and when i feel he is ready to produce them. A horse being able to do (even very nice) piaffe/passage/canter halfpass change of hands/extentions/canter piros etc etc is not necessarily able to string them all together in the order required for GP or GP special, or even have the strength (physical or mental) to perform these WELL for the entire test. This is a MASSIVE acheivement.

    So please, if this is deemed not suitable for this thread, please someone open a new topic discussing PK's methods/philosophy in the horse training section. The debate/discussion is very healthy. It evokes scrutiny or ourselves as well as other methods, makes us consider WHY we do things the way we do, and thereby encourages learning (either through what has been written, or by seeking out further knowlege). And afterall, THIS is what the discussion forums are (should be?) about...
  19. shadowkat

    shadowkat Well-known Member

    I'm hoping to at least get to the free theory bits. Don't know much about PK but I love learning new things - it all helps me be a better horse person, I figure.
  20. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    Oh i forgot a bit...

    Loved watching Toto and Fuego at WEG - found it so interesting watching 2 horses with such different breeding and training background perform. Both had their advantages/disadvantages and highs/lows, but both were very inspirational to watch and very enjoyable.

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