no confidence anymore

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by smash, Jun 8, 2008.

  1. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    Why are people with horses becoming less and less confidence with how to work with or ride horses?
    there are increasingly more posts of my horse, bucks, wont stops, rears, wont go, wont stand, wont do this and wont do that and the list goes on.
    Where are these people learning to ride?
    Where are these people learning how handle a horse?
    Do riding schools just skip the essentials and just try to teach the people to stay up on a horse long enough so they think they can ride?
    They finally think they can ride, so get a horse, and without even knowing it, terrorise the poor thing until, it bucks, bolts, stops, rears and nearly kills them just to stop the terrorising.
    Why don’t riding schools teach people to work on the ground with a horse with no head collar? Why don’t they teach people to ride with no bridle (head collar only) to help them understand how sensitive a horse is, to understand that it is a privilege and not a right to be up there? Look at how easily you can break their trust, by simply not understanding the horse’s body language.
    Simply holding a lead rope to firm can make him barge right through you.
    People are now so unsure of their own ability, that it makes them have poor judgement on handling the simplest problem. They make a simple problem become a huge disaster, because they did not realise they even had a problem until the horse had to actually take matters into his own hands (hooves) and scare the beejeebas out of the rider/handler. Oh they take notice of the horse then!!!!!!!!
    And the horse is MADE to suffer because the person lacks confidence in their own ability.
    Is there no riding school that teaches people to understand the horse or are there only the ones that want a group of horses to pay for themselves?
    I have tried to get my frustration out in this post, so please don’t read it as an attack on riding schools or individuals. I just don’t know how to say it any other way, and I know I am not alone in the frustration of seeing SO MANY people have SO MANY problems to simply walk, trot and canter.
    I am hoping people will put their opinions and solutions or ideas on how to find a way to get peoples confidence in dealing with a horse.
  2. Beauvelour

    Beauvelour Well-known Member

    And i think there are lots of people gettin Ex racehorses that shouldnt be. Im not referring to anyone in particular and im not trying to start an argument but some TBs come with a little baggage.

    There are reasons why green horses are given to experienced riders and school masters are given to green riders
  3. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

  4. pso

    pso Gold Member

    I think maybe cost comes into it?
    Try not to blame the riding schools...they cant work for free!
    Back when riding lessons cost $5-10...parents could afford to send kids for lessons/camps etc for years...Nowadays when its $30-40 a lesson...They usually only stick around for a term, and think they know everything...
    Kids USED to want to stay around all day and help (clean tack, muck out, groom etc) and hence pick up bits of knowledge...nowadays...they want to have a lesson and leave...
    People are in general time poor, and money poor...Thats the way society seems to be right now...#(

    I really think people need to have a licence to own a horse...even if it only tests basic knowledge...But it should include a necessary level of education...

    You cant drive a car legally without a couple of tests and 30 odd hours of practical experience....And a horse is a darn sight more difficult to understand than a car! Yet any idiot can go out and buy a horse, a saddle, and get on and ride?:confused:

    We all have the opportunity to learn something new everyday around horses, but not everyone wants to learn.....;)
  5. Gaia

    Gaia Gold Member

    Because not everyone doing the teaching (where ever it may be) understand horse behaviour. I also agree that too many ppl are getting OTT TB for beginners. I LOVE the way you think Smash. Great thread!**)

    Now THAT sums it up!
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  6. Beauvelour

    Beauvelour Well-known Member

    "Kids USED to want to stay around all day and help (clean tack, muck out, groom etc) and hence pick up bits of knowledge...nowadays...they want to have a lesson and leave...." (Still getting used to things lol)

    So so right. When we have a training day if you dont help set up and pack up no ride. But its always the same SMALL group of people helping out.

    When i was teaching my sister to ride she had to help me saddle /unsaddle and feed up. She cracked the s***s and cried so i didn't teach her again!!
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  7. Tallarook

    Tallarook Well-known Member

    Yes i hear what your saying Smash.

    If you think about it, alot of kids nowadays are not bought up with horses like we were. They live in the city and just dont get the hands on and the hours of the "Hard yards".

    Hence - why all these Natural horsemanship days etc get such a following, there is definately a market of people needing help.
  8. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    mmmm i hear you PSO
    yes a licence sounds good LOL LOL LOL
    but what if a riding school said "nope you have to learn to lead a horse with no head collar on before you were allowed to ride" ???
    i know those "all caring parents" (insert sarcasm) would want their beloved child to learn to be able to "safely" ride a horse of there own one day.
    but yeah i did read scorpios frustration also, and they kind of have their hands tied too. mmmmmm
    i dont know, if this is the result we are now seeing, people to scared to deal with a horse and causing more and more problems, and people more and more confused on their own ability, what is that saying about out horse riding/learning structure??
    dont get me wrong, no one means to disrespect their horse, but just not knowing what they are saying is disrespectful enough.
    i dont think OTTB are carring too much baggage, as they speak body language the loudest (behind arabs of course) LOL but most people just dont know anything about body languge until they are actually kicked LOL LOL
    just frustrated that the horse speaks one language, and if a human had no tongue or hands, then they would speak the same language as the horse.
    do humans lose their ability stop and listen to the one breed that they protest to love with all their heart, once they actually own one??
    aaahhh rambling, sorry, just venting, take no notice of me, sorry.

    Edited to add, scorpio, I hear you too mate, its just frustrating seeing so many horse lovers, leaving their common sense at the gate
  9. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    What can I say, kids these days get taken from one entertainment to another one, Mum's taxi,riding lessons are one of them. They don't have to learn the hard way anymore. Like mucking out stables before school and on the weekends to be able to afford riding lessons. ;) :)

    I learned the horses body language pretty quick to stay save when handling and brushing and gearing up horses before I was allowed on a horse lol. :D

    Ppl these days don't even realise, that they have a problem, before they get run over from their horse at feed time. Than they post a thread ' need help with a dangerous horse, should it be put down'.

    There is a big market for Natural Horsemanship, at least they try to help you how to understand your horse and give you some basic ideas.
    There are lots of ppl who have lost confidence, but did they have confidence in the first place? Did they bother to learn how to read a horse? Did they know the difference of a TB of the track and a riding school horse before they bought the so quiet TB? *#)
  10. Babe the standy ROCKS

    Babe the standy ROCKS Well-known Member

    I really agree with what is being discussed here. When I first got back into horses 2 years ago it was mainly about the riding but along the way I`ve had a very good friend open my eyes to the language horses use. I wish I knew more but I must be thick as I find it hard to learn or maybe I`m being unrealistic with my expectations. The hardest thing for me in my quest for better horsemanship is finding someone who can personally teach me the basics (and more) with my own horse on a regular basis. I just can`t seem to learn from a book or course eg Pirelli or Quantum Savvy.
  11. Roe

    Roe Banned

    Being someone who has lost their confidents and who currently owns oTTTb. Please excuse me when I say you should keep your assumption to your self. I like to think she is the most wonderful horse to ride.

    I am really not sure what children/ people we are talking about all the young people I latley have come accross some of the most enspiring young people around that are passionate about horses and everything that comes along.

    Maybe we should be greatful that the people who have these issues have a place to ask questions which can help them.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  12. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    I have to agree, as i have fitted into both sides of this discussion. As a teen i got thrown on a horse and just rode with no understanding of a horses body language, etc. I learnt alot but with no consideration to the animal.

    Now after doing a clinic 3 years ago and learning how to keep myself safe, how to understand a horse, his instincts, how he learns, thinks etc has made my handling and training of my own horse a much nicer experiance for both me and him. I am compassionate and confident which relays to him.
    Ground work, riding in halter and lead and learning the basics of a one rein stop etc to me is so so important now.
    There should be a basic criteria to pass before buying a horse, but how could this ever be manned. It couldn't....unfortunately
  13. samm

    samm Gold Member

    Hey Smash ,I think my signature sums it up pretty well:)*
  14. WildandFree

    WildandFree Well-known Member

    smash i hear you

    i am very lucky in who i was taught by i am lucky that i wanted to learn as horses are my passion and have been since my mum gave me a chance at horse riding lessons as a 7-8yr old i am 21 now and lets say i really haven't looked back as they my passion my love

    i want to muck out stables i want to find out everything so when ever lesson came about i would ofer pester people to learn and still do

    and i am very lucky to have a amazing horse that teachs me that makes me lision that makes me aware that make me become a better rider

    i will admit i have had trouble i admit at time i wanted to sell him but in the end it was my fault i missed the signs but then coz is top to look at him to read him he showed me and we where back on track

    we have gone thro bucking we gone thro being a ass about everything

    but i read i asked i slugged thro mud trying to figure out this horse but we got there in the end

    i love him that i do everytime i ride him we just get better and better and the fact is no matter how high or low i go hes there to nudge me the right dection

    like today i decied i was bored in the saddle so rode him bareback now i suck at bare back always have but decied to bite the bullet so to speak and just give it go

    and the cunning sod decied that he will train his human now yes you can say he took advanged of me blah blah but i know my horse and he was training me

    he would not canter untill i got the trot sorted laid his ears bak everytime like mum don't think about it we trotting till you figure this out

    so after 10mins of trying to figure the trot out i got it so please with my self but i then had to do the other rein before i was alowed half a canter

    hes a smart horse and i feel blessed to have found him

    its sad people are 'pressed' for time coz if they let there child hang groom saddle muck out the child would learn so much more

    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  15. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    Good on you WildandFree. :D **) :))
  16. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    Look many of us were bought up (I will rephrase that, I was) around horses in the 70s.
    I never heard of “natural” nothing LOL you went to PC, just so you knew you that unless you had a lot of money, you found out that you were not good enough (I see not much has changed through the years in that department) .
    The thing that MADE me question what and why I was doing with a horse, was everything was bloody hard yakka.
    You had to MAKE the horse walk, trot and canter.
    You had to MAKE the horse go on the bit
    You had to MAKE the horse do anything, and all you got were other more difficult problems to solve, like dropped shoulders, stiff neck bends, not excepting the bit, no engagement from the hind quarters, and that is just from getting the horse on the bit.
    It was here I sat back and went, why!!!!!!!!!!!
    Because when I stood backed and looked, the horse was doing EXACTLY what I was asking with my body.
    Ok, I made it go on the bit, but when i went to go, I put both legs on to go, but held the front end in so he stayed on the bit, so the horse tries to twist some part of its body to compensate what I have asked, oh dives on the forehand, (quick more rein and leg needed) whoops dropped shoulder (more inside leg) whoops lost quarters (move legs back) damn, my horses neck and head are twisting (hell need more rein) whoops my horse just blew up.
    THIS IS WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT and I have not even got into the canter, and I am sitting up there like a contortionist and trying to say to myself “oh isn’t ridding fun” NOT.
    Now if I understood how a horse communicated, and used those “principles” to ride, I would then have to understand what part of my body blocks what.
    Now there are two main blocking parts to a body, hands and lower leg (heels).
    Hands block the front end and our lower leg block the back legs of a horse.
    Now with these two areas blocked, is it not any wonder we have things dropping and popping out all over the place (shoulders, quarters, rushing and forehand problems).
    Mmm now here is the funny part, everyone is in a rush for the finished product, yet it will take the about 2 years to train them to do a prelim test (walk, trot and canter on the bit) and they will stay there for another 4 years because of the problems that they need solve.
    Now by stepping back and seeing why, what and how a horse responds, and why, what and how our body influences a horse, it takes 3 months to establish walk, trot and canter on the bit, which you might stay in prelim for 8 months, then off you go, as there is no problems to solve so you are off to another level of riding.
    So if you are indeed rushing or trying to get to the top, why do most people pick the hardest way to get there, in which very few succeed?
    Sorry for the venting, but I just hate seeing so many horses having to suffer.
  17. safs_mum

    safs_mum Well-known Member

    Interesting thread.

    I remember when I was younger I used to hang around anyone with horses as much as possible, learning alot by helping out. Alot of ppl are worried about what would happen if someone got kicked, bitten, trampled etc on their property. We've all heard of people being sued :( I think that this is part of the problem.

    I have two young girls next door who are absolutely horse mad and would be here all the time if I let them, just playing with the horses, mucking out etc. I don't have public liability insurance, so I worry about the ramifications if something happened. I remember just being allowed to 'hang out' at a racing stable with no supervision, no signed waiver. I guess those days are gone.
  18. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    mmm good point safs mum
  19. Cav

    Cav Gold Member

    When I was taught to ride I was never taught to block anything?

    I was taught to have soft giving hands and use my seat and legs and my body to turn the horse, make it straight, and drive it forward from under and behind to engage the horse for impulsion and get it off the forhand and it makes getting the horse "on the bit" so much easier and lighter and more enjoyable to ride :)

    I think that ultimately the kids/people that are truly dedicated to the sport and art of riding and horsemanship will take the time to learn and read and watch how to do it properly. The rest are just "cowboys" figuratively speaking and will eventually fall by the wayside.
  20. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    Yes cav, it is what is taught, drive the hind legs under to make the horse lighter up front, simple enough enology, but that is the problem, VERY FEW understand how to achieve this.
    No one stop and taught how YOU need to understand your horses hind leg foot fall and the fact it is YOUR leg to move out the way to allow the hind legs to come through.
    The problem is the wording “drive” when it should be “allow” the horse to move from behind. “Drive” is a forceful aide; you can only “drive” a horse so far, before you start having problems with 4 beating, and inactive behind, because your “driving” aide has become a “blocking” aide, so whips and spurs are needed for more “drive”, but now you need a double bridle to “control” the forceful “drive”.
    There are some people on here, who starting to understand the importance of understanding hind quarter foot falls and the ability to move the lower leg out of the way to achieve this and not sit there trying to continually “drive” the hind quarters under them.
    I suppose that is half the problems out there, people teaching people to forcefully “drive” their horses forward.
    Thank god there are instructors like Richard weiss around, who are showing riders, just how little they understand their horse.
    So if anybody EVER gets a chance, he is one instructor that will make you realize that you have enough trouble controlling the walk, why on gods name are you trotting. LOL LOL LOL
    Love that guy.

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