Natural horsemanship OR just plain old Horsemanship!

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by FDPH, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. TobanMokey736

    TobanMokey736 Well-known Member

    [/QUOTE]If you have a horse that is well trained, fit for the work and knows the movement... regardless of what you're asking for, YOU have to be correct. If the horse isn't performing as you wish regardless of what you want it to do from floatloading to riding to catching - look at yourself because that is where the resistance is coming from.

    To me that is horsemanship regardless of the form it is packaged in, if you aren't continuously relearning and looking at what YOU are doing, you're fighting a losing battle IMO.[/QUOTE]

    YES YES YES!!!! halleluja! lol.
  2. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    I think we should wait five years and market Organic Horsemanship. Better for the horse, more expensive and even less people being experts *#)*#)

    For all of the labels, the word horsemanship sticks like mud. As someone said, it's either good or bad.

    I give credit to parelli for unlocking the closed minds of the masses and getting them (the humans) to actually start thinking about what they are doing with their horses. This is a start.
  3. Faxie

    Faxie Well-known Member

    Great post ML!!

    Yes i am probably one of a handful of Parelli devotees in WA, but I just have to share this story. Yesterday i played with my horse at liberty. Now this horse has been out of action for nearly 2 years due to lameness.

    Anyway, this horse is extremely playful and hated me not doing anything with him! I mean he would run after the float down the drive as i would drive out with even when it was empty and his mate is still in the paddock with him.

    We had reached quite advanced moments before his improptu retirement.

    With the softest and sublest direction from me in an open paddock he circled around me, did changes of direction at a canter WITH flying lead changes, walked, trotted, backed all with exuberance and joy! He even offered movements i didn't ask for just because he wanted to do them! Like sideways towards me... he just kept saying 'how about this?!' It was one of many special moments i have had with this horse and i hope to have many more.

    Now i am not sharing this to promote Parelli or bignote myself, but if it wasn't for Parelli i know i wouldn't be having these wonderful moments that will stay with me forever.

    thanks for reading :)

    And YES we can create this in the saddle too, with or without a rope halter, bridle or nothing on his head at all.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  4. Mayasmum

    Mayasmum Well-known Member

    That is awesome Faxie. :)

    I'm so glad you posted that because people seem to have such negative connotations surrounding Parelli, all I ever do is just try to balance it with some positives.

    If people came into everything (every horse experience) with a neutral mindset, rather than negative, I think we'd learn a lot more than we thought we would. That has been true for me.
  5. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    Jayne you have been thinking exactly what I have been thinking - I wonder if perhaps part of the reason that Parelli followers can become a little over devoted (as can Mark Rashid followers, or Carlos Tabernaberri followers - BTW I'm off to one of his clinics in a few weeks so THAT will be interesting!) where was I? Ah yes - becoming over devoted. I think there is a tendency for this to happen because NH (or whatever we are now calling it) is still a little outside the mainstream (whatever THAT is!) and so people tend to come to it because whatever they were doing before wasn't working. I know that's what I did. So then if it DOES work, and because whatever else we may say about them NHers ARE a welcoming bunch (as are most churches LOLOL), people can become a little evangelical. It's new, and it's exciting, and it's working for them.
    I look forward to the day when a whole new generation of NHers come through - people like my 5 year old daughter who thinks it's normal for horses and ponies to wear a rope halter (even if it is bright pink :D) and to be able to back them up with a finger, and to lead on the end of a long rope, and so on and so on. I doubt they'll be having these discussions then. It's just what you do, just as leading by the beard and using a webbing halter was "just what I did" when I was younger.
    I've had 2 more small epiphanies since the last post - the horses got out in the canola crop yesterday - they were having a ball - running and snorting and generally doing their thing. It's REALLY hard to chase horses in waist high canola... SO I got their attention - and sat down! Of course I disappeared completely and within about 30 seconds they had caught themselves... Then this morning the young bloke decided to have an issue with picking up his back feet and instead of making a big issue of it I backed off, went back to picking them up with a rope, played a lot of "friendly game" (also known as stroking LOL) and within 3 minutes the issue was over.
    Now I don't care if that was NH, horsemanship, or just me being able to exploit their natural curiousity - I would not have thought of either of those things without NH (Parelli in my case) and for that I am thankful.
    Obviously Sharway I am a little slow on the uptake as I hadn't previously managed to work these things out for myself ;) but we all have to start somewhere.
    BTW, I went to a level 1 Parelli clinic and I have to say ONE thing did stick in my craw - I was carrying a replica carrot stick and string (ooh naughty me) and my string was dark green - because all my horse's gear is dark green. SO I got told off for having a green string because that's what you get when you get to level 3. Now I'm sorry, but that's starting to feel a bit TOO much like a church to me....
  6. Faxie

    Faxie Well-known Member

    Yeah it is a shame that people get fanatical about it. Pat has a tongue in cheek response to that by saying first thing on a Sunday morning 'welcome to horse church" Lol... they know the issues people have with their program..

    You definately won't see me out there trying to convert. The true horsemen just get on doing their own thing. If people want to ask they will and I will never shove it down their throat. Each to their own. As long as i am doing what i want to do and it is for the benefit of the horse and the continual self improvement of me thats all that i care about!

    I would have hoped Anna that the comment about your gear was tongue in cheek as well?! Surely no one would be that serious to worry about carrot stick and string colours, the most important thing is that you were there!! What matters most is your relationship with your horses and that you are both having fun!

    Totally agree, i can't wait until my son is old enough and providing he actually is interested in horses, to see how he develops as a horseman because he will be bought up taught to always handle horses this way.

    No force, fear, intimidation or mechanics.
  7. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I think the negative conontations surrounding PP have come around because of the over zealous following of some of his supporters.

    Many of us who prefer the supposed "horsemanship" rd as opposed the "natural horsemanship" rd, use similar concepts and methods but keep what they do practical. (eg, not practical or safe to ride a stallion in halter and leadrope in public, even if I can, or loading a horse from beside the float, not 50 feet away. Far less chance for something to go wrong when I am there beside them.

    Horsemanship is not only about being soft and creating a healthy working rleationship between you and your horse, it is also about keeping you, your horse and other ppl safe and sometimes, the extreme and almost circus like feats that some NH zealots do with there horse, whilst spectacular and touching to watch, are JUST NOT PRACTICAL in the everyday interactions with your horse ie at shows and competitions.

    "as soft as possible but as as hard as neccesary to get the desired response. Make it easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing and reward with the release of pressure".

    Heres a pic that I think shows an awesome amount of trust on both the horse and riders part.
    Lucinda Prior Palmer jumping her Badminton winner, Be Fair over the infamous fence 2 at the 1973 European Eventing Champoinships in Kiev. This fence caused 20 falls and 15 eliminations.
  8. TobanMokey736

    TobanMokey736 Well-known Member

    my horse... hahaha good one Bucking Mad. hehe
  9. TBPA

    TBPA Well-known Member

    But thats what this whole disscussion seems to come from this is normal for so many people and it has nothing to do with Parelli or NH.:D
    All you need to train a horse is calm consistant communication the method is only the language.
    Quibling over the language is like going to Japan and saying why don't you idiots speak english!! They don't have to Japanese works just fine :)*
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  10. PPH

    PPH Guest

    exactly TBPA.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it
  11. PPH

    PPH Guest

    where you just about to say "I Love You"

    :p :D:)*
  12. TBPA

    TBPA Well-known Member

    And everyone sounds like a retard when they first learn a new language undoubtedly people stuff up what they are trying to say. It is really easy when you were born speaking it or learn from a young age.
  13. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I think timing and release are 2 biggies, at least in my book. Too early or too late and you reward the wrong thing.
  14. Faxie

    Faxie Well-known Member

    totally agree with everything said! it is unfortuate that some peoples timing is off with regard to when and where to do things with their horses. I wouldn't for example play at liberty with my horse in a public space LOL! just for the simple fact of the safety of others.. and i have nothing to prove anyway.

    From my personal experience i had no idea there were better ways to do things with a horse before i was introduced to Parelli. I was very much the force and mechanics kind of gal, ie spurs to go, big bit to stop and a martingate to boot. Just ignorance on my part and being brought up through pony club in the 80's. I thank the Parellis for coming here in 1995 and the timing was right for me to show me there is a better way. Its just that i am one of the rare few that have stuck with them thru thick and thin. Doesn't mean that it is right for everyone it is just right for me, as BM said 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Personally i love the fact that there is truckloads of dvd's and written support as it just adds to my never ending journey of learning about myself and horses. It is how i learn, i cannot figure it out much for myself LOL!

    I also love the fact that they have centres all over the world and having been to their homeplace in Colorado, it was the most amazing experience of my horsey life! It gives me a HUGE incentive to want to travel if i can do or see something i am passionate about on my travels!

    Yes horsemanship is all about feel, TIMING, and balance (& i just don't mean balance so you can stay on a horse!) After all riding is the mere act of not falling off heehee
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  15. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    See I'm not sure I agree BM and TBPA - horsemanship (whether NH or whatever) is NOT common. Try going to Pony Club or ARC around here at least... You will see the odd one with a rope halter but other than that there's not much of what I would call horsemanship on view. Standing in the arena hanging onto the horse's mouth even when they're not doing anything, being led by the beard, horses and ponies grained up to the eyeballs, going off their nuts tied up to the float, invading their owners' space, not standing still to be mounted, not moving over, being growled at and yelled at...
    Now I sound like a NH fanatic becasue I am saying that the conventional route doesn't work but.. they ask me why my horses and ponies are so quiet and when I start with "well they learn groundwork" people go "Oh - Parelli..." and wander off! When my daughter leads her pony from in front on a loose rope she gets told to pick it up in case he treads on it... So what? He'll learn not to do it again! We don't go to PC any more....
    These things may be normal in some horse sport areas (campdrafting, endurance and poloX spring to mind) but it ain't normal at PC, which is where most youngsters get their introduction. More to the point, it is where most novice mums of pony mad kids start...
    But now I'm starting to sound like John O Leary (now THERE'S a master in self promotion) so I'll shut up.
  16. domingo

    domingo Active Member

    lol - at least now we know who is to blame. No offence Lacey, but you will grow up too :))
  17. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    lol Anna dont be picking on John, he likes the PC system about as much as you do lol.
  18. Merlin

    Merlin Well-known Member

    What I would like to know is how many successful racehorse trainers, top dressage riders, showjump riders, Showies, Event people use these training methods?
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  19. Sharaway

    Sharaway Guest

    Merlin, and I thought I had a way of charming people, you just took the cake with that last comment, thats a classic example of how NOT to win friends and influence ppl, there is an unwritten rule on this forum, it pays to not say what you really think sometimes lol.

    Ive had to learn this, and relearn it often lol
  20. FDPH

    FDPH Guest

    Lindy Burch, Wayne Robinson cutting trainers in the US studied under Dorrance and Hunt, one of the best cutting trainers in Australia spent yrs with Hunt and a very successfull dressage rider in England (Saltriver will know his name when she gets back)also has spent time with Hunt. Thats the few off the top of my head.

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