Magic update

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by ShowjumpKid4Eva, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Northern Peregrine

    Northern Peregrine Well-known Member

    Fair enough. I guess I'm just coloured by my recent experiences with my breaker ( not a bucker, bolter or shyer)..who was sent off to a trainer initially and, as I haven't got a hidden freakish for anything really, after the very first hiccups with me riding he was back to a trainer again. Each to their own though... I just chose to do that before pear-shaped truly loomed on the horizon. Anyway glad to hear things are going fairly smoothly again for you..really hope it continues :))
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  2. racehorsemad

    racehorsemad New Member

    Breaking and training horses are two different things. You can train a broken horse by bringing it on and furthering it's education. Training is improving the horse from green to schoolmaster, or at least further it from where it started. I believe once you have the skills and the miles under your belt in improving horses, then you may be ready to try your hand at breaking as you already understand the basics. I re-trained ex race horses and took on many project horses before I considered breaking a horse. My first breaker was an inexpensive horse so if I messed it up I wasn't out of pocket. She has turned out the most wonderful animal I have ever owned, lucky for me.

    I don't want to sound like I am having a go at you, just concerned for your safety, but would you consider that maybe you might need more experience under your belt in bringing on young horses first successfully, learning how to educate and then later on when you have many miles, try your hand at breaking?
    I think for your safety, a professional breaker should be on the cards to ensure that Magic will be a good, safe ride with a good mouth on her. You can learn a lot from bringing on a horse but you won't learn anything if your horse isn't broken properly or unsafe, except learning the hard way.
    It does however seem that the advice from others here has landed on deaf ears...
  3. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I'm sorry but this comment really bugs me and I don't mean to be picking but when you say you have tried it on a number of horses and it does'nt work, it makes me wonder if it being used correctly as if performed right, it would work. This is an aid that is taught and used by many yet you seem to totally disregard it. The hindquarters of the horse are like the engine and driving power of the horse, take it out of gear (disengage the hindquarters) and it takes away the power.
    It is an aide I teach to all my horses, not just as a safety brake but because it helps to supple and soften them and their responses to your aides and you can start the basics from the ground. It also can take a while to teach depending on the horse and as with any aid, you have to remind them sometimes.
    I've had some horses pick up the basics in a lesson, others take days, but they all get it in the end.

    Can I ask what method you use to stop the flight response?
  4. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    Thank you all.

    I did not ask for advice regarding my choices, with this horse or with any. I do very much appreciate the advice despite this fact and have given everyone's comments due consideration.

    With this knowledge I have made my decision and will be sticking with it. I have gotten this far with her without a single lesson, so the fact that I am trying to get a hold of someone [who is not returning my calls :/ time, methinks, to try someone else...] is actually all due to you guys and the advice given. I have reached the end of my knowledge when it comes to training. I had a plan up until this point, which clearly was a pretty decent one - the results speak for themselves - but other than putting more miles on her and getting her more comfortable/confident in the saddle I don't have a clue where to go from here. Hence the idea of lessons.

    I don't consider her broke... yet. She's started. What she needs to be broken in but green is just more miles. I've ridden OTTBs that knew a LOT less than Magic, but because they'd had more miles and therefore their knowledge was more consolidated, were considered broken in. [ie, there is no canter, only slow gallop... barely any steering, barely any stop, no reinback to speak of; Magic knows all this]. So aren't I at the same point, approximately, as I would be with an OTTB? Just without racetrack training to undo?

    I don't know where to go from here. I wouldn't know where to start with an OTTB... other than to re-start from the ground up and then be in the same quandary anyway by the time I had controlled w/t/c, steering, stop and leg aids. There is absolutely no point in selling Moo to get something that's a bit further along in its education because, for what I could get for Magic, all I could afford is older horses... the point of having two horses is to have something young enough to take over when Monty retires, be that in 2 years or 10.

    PPH, as I said, I do know how to properly employ the ORS, was taught it and how to train it by a very good horseman. It has saved me in the past... I was on a known bucker [pony I mentioned in a previous post] bareback in a halter because back then falling off didn't bother me plus it wasn't very far to fall. There's a moron down a particular bridle path who cracks his whip deliberately to scare horses when he sees them, he started cracking his whip, pony was about to bolt/go off in a bucking fit, so I whipped him into an ORS, knowing I didn't have the ability to haul his head up if he started bucking and wasn't going to be able to stay on if he bolted [and I was NOT going to come off him, not that day, because he had a way of associating actions with consequences even if he was beyond terrified at the time], and held him there until he settled. I KNOW IT WORKS. But as with anything, no one method works for all horses. It certainly doesn't work for Monty - I spent the time to teach him, yet last time I used it I almost pulled him over.

    Of course what MONTY does [when he tanks off] is dump his weight onto the forehand, DISengage his hindquarter, set his neck and just go... so the ORS is useless for that situation. How does one disengage what is not engaged in the first place?

    When I remember it [my brain dies in moments of panic :/ note to self make it instinctive] I use the pulley rein. You set one hand against the neck, with a lot of pressure on the rein, then check-release with the other hand, increasing the strength of your checks until the horse listens. It ain't pretty, it sure isn't always nice, but it works... and it's NOT cruel because you give the horse the option to listen to lighter checks before you start to put your back into it. The idea is to make the horse fight against itself, NOT against you, and it will eventually give up.

    It's also safer to employ at high speed, no risk of pulling your horse over. Doesn't work so well for bucking [but bridging your reins and pushing them through it DOES, and I can ride a pretty decent buck - Moo was apparently getting a LOT of air when she got me off] and it's quite useless for rearing, but there are plenty of other methods to deal with bucking and rearing.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  5. Brucey

    Brucey New Member

    I hope the linked worked, just a bit of info for you on the damage that you can do by over working youngsters.
    I didn't read all the posts, but someone said "End on a good note" which is excellent advice.
    Educate YOURSELF as much as you can, especially regarding work load for breakers, and the negative effects that can be caused not only physically, but emotionally from over doing it.
    Its my personal preference not to break in at 2, I don't see what the rush is, and the long term soundness of the horse is more important, and it is more likely to stay sound if you take things slow. Good luck with the filly.:)

  6. racehorsemad

    racehorsemad New Member

    Sorry I am having alot of trouble understanding that post especially re the OTTB's. Riding trackwork they all know how to walk trot and canter as part of their prep work? It's essential. It's really a different kettle of fish, as breaking is setting a foundation for which to build on and must be done right. Getting a good mouth on the horse is all important and can make or brake a horse.
    How did you actually mouth the horse?

    Putting work into mouthing and groundwork can save you in the future as any horse with a good mouth will be caught and stopped before actually going through with what they would have done, ie, bolt, buck etc...
    ORS if executed properly should work every time, has saved me many times in the past.. but we wont get into that debate again.
    Good luck with it all.
  7. PPH

    PPH Guest

    Actually, yes it is also applicable to rearing. The idea of disengaging the hindquarters is to split the hind legs. To rear, or buck, generally have to have the hindlegs together to power and brace off. With the head and neck bent and the hind legs split, it's near on impossible for them to then rear. But if you get into trouble and attempt to use this without ever trying it on your horse, you will have a horse wreck.

    And what it sounds like Monty is doing is giving you the head and bending and the pushing through the shoulder. If he was geniunly disengaged he would have to stop or at least slow. A geniune case of rubbernecking lolololol You say you taught him but was it maintained and done regulary?

    The one rein stop should be started from the ground at a standstill and then be included in the basic groundwork before the horse even has a saddle on. The horse needs to understand how give it's head and bend and be able to do this at a stop in order to do it while moving and it has to be practiced at the walk, trot, canter, and gallop, in order to have it in your "bag of tricks".
    As an exercise, you can apply numerous times (30 or 40) on alternating sides from a stand still. Your goal is to get the horse to reliably stop moving when you ask for the one rein stop.

    And yes we all have wrecks sometimes but usually because we ignore signals the horse is giving BEFORE it gets to that situation. If your horse bucked that much and that hard to get you off, she's trying to tell you she's not happy with something.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2013
  8. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    ORS works for rearers. That isn't what I meant. PULLEY REIN is what I meant is useless on a rearer. Makes them go higher and you risk flipping them over backwards.

    I feel like my words are being misinterpreted. Maybe I'm not being clear enough.
  9. NLEC

    NLEC Well-known Member

    What is Pulley Rein? :unsure:
  10. PPH

    PPH Guest

    this apparently NLEC
  11. South Boulder Boy

    South Boulder Boy Well-known Member

  12. NLEC

    NLEC Well-known Member

    Oh lol.... Ta guys.

    When i posted the question last night I had looked through comments to see an explanation :p i must have looked with my eyes closed!
  13. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    Only if they don't respond to a light check. I was taught it by an instructor who witnessed me almost pull Monty over when he tried to bolt with me, and that time I'd caught him before he got going. Pulley rein, like ORS, isn't something that you should employ if you don't know how and when to use it. Because it's quite a harsh thing, a real demand, it should be a last resort, not a first option. As little as possible, as much as necessary.

    Pulley rein also can't be employed if you only have one rein [whether you've broken it or dropped it is irrelevant], and doesn't work at all in a halter... it IS a lot more limited than the ORS but I've found myself in situations where the ORS is frankly dangerous [bolting horse, full gallop, no room to circle only room for a straight line]. The more tools you have in your arsenal the better off you are... which is why I haven't completely thrown the ORS out and branded it useless, because I know it DOES work, in the right situation, with the right horse. I just can't make it instinct because it's dangerous on Monty, and I don't think fast enough to remember to use it when things go wrong.
  14. katers93

    katers93 Well-known Member

    If you believe you don't react very quickly I might suggest you use the ORS to improve your own reactions :) when my mare used to play up terribly she would spin on her hindquarters and rear and then buck while she ran. It was extremely unseating and it was to me the most appropriate time to use a ORS with her. I would use the ORS as soon as I felt she was about to spin around and would prevent her from being able to misbehave before she had done it. I would try to be very observant with Magic and improve your reactions by using the ORS before she has the chance to misbehave.

    I'm suggesting this because you say you are interested in training :) the best trainers are so good at what they do not just because of their knowledge but because they tend to have extremely good reactions which allow them to efficiently and effectively communicate with the horse :)
  15. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    I can react fast, Katers, I just don't think fast so if I have to consciously remember something, by the time I do, it's usually too late. If I make something instinctive OTOH it's instant - like sitting back and shoving your heels down on a bucking horse, I rode out some BIG ones before she finally got me off according to the friend who was watching when she bucked me off. I think I remember being bareback at the time, too! :eek:

    The trouble with having one horse that for whatever reason the ORS is dangerous on and one that it would be a huge benefit for is that I do have to consciously remember it, because if I make it instinct then I'll do it on Monty too and that could get me or him or both badly hurt. But Monty's going so nicely at the moment that I wonder if I'll even have cause to use it on him... I have thinking to do.

    The instructor I've been trying to get in contact with was one of the instructors at PC yesterday so I finally got to talk to her, she said that Tuesdays haven't been free but her Tuesday people are all looking at moving to a Wednesday so it might be possible in the very near future. I sure hope so. I had the best lesson from her, despite a very large group I learned HEAPS [group lessons don't normally work for me], so I can only imagine how much I would learn if I could get an hour a week one-on-one. On Monty while Moo is spelling [I'm undecided as to whether it's a 3 month spell or whether she'll be out until her 3rd birthday in September, either way she needs the break], then I'll figure something out so that I'm getting lessons on both.
  16. NaeNae87

    NaeNae87 Well-known Member

    From what I have read, the Pulley Rein can seriously damage the bars of the mouth... I understand that it is a method that should only be used as an absolute last resort, however surely you would want to get the best result with the least amount of force?

    All the reading I have done on the ORS and the experience I have with it tells me that it works in 99.9% of the cases, and that a horse needs to be trained in it in order for it to be effecive when reeded in an emergency situation. Have you trained Monty to respond correctly to a ORS?

    Read what all the really good trainers have to say on the subject. They have lots of ways to training horses, mulitple tools in their belts and different methods to get the same results. Some horses pick things up super quick, others take a while. Just because Monty didn't respond well to the ORS does not necessarily mean that this method cannot be employed successfully with him, it just means that more time may need to be spent teaching him the correct respose to that particular aid.

    In regards to Magic... A lot of good advice has been given to you on the subject. There are a lot of really experienced people on her and as I have said before we are all hoping that you succeed with Magic. You have put a lot of work in with her and you are starting to get somewhere. This is fantastic, good for the pair of you.

    If you want to better your skills as a trainer, maybe see if you can do some work experience for trainers in your area? If you work hard and are enthusiastic, I am sure they would be willing to pass some of thier knowledge on to you. There are also really good books on training that you can pick up online for cheap.
  17. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    Yes, I have. If I'm not very much mistaken I have already said that several times in the course of this thread. He does know it. I do know how to employ it correctly and have trained/used it with success in the past, unfortunately it just fizzes him up more and runs a very high risk of pulling him over - I have been warned by a very good instructor not ever to use it on him!

    Pulley rein isn't something I really LIKE to use, but knowing I have it in my arsenal, Monty is much more respectful of lighter bit aids. And, again, it's only harsh/damaging on the bars if the horse chooses not to respond to a light check. You start soft and work your way up until the horse responds - you let the HORSE dictate the force you use, to get the result you want. Starting small and getting stronger is IME the quickest way to get a light response from your horse. I've used it on a horse that was plain and simple just a strong brat - not a bolter just ignoring because she thought she could get away with it - to great effect. I'm sure there are horses that it's dangerous on - rearers are one perfect example! - but if you need to stop that bolting horse, you need to stop it NOW, and worry about its mouth later.

    I very rarely have to use pulley rein on Monty now. Between the fact that I don't often put myself in situations where I might need it [I deliberately avoid places I can't circle him, ride in a pelham with double reins if I feel like I'm going to need to get heavy on his mouth, etc] and the fact that HE knows I have it in my arsenal, I haven't needed it in ages. I haven't needed it once on Magic, she's not a bolter.
  18. NaeNae87

    NaeNae87 Well-known Member

    Sorry, I missed the other pages where you said it (only once about Monty knowing it though)

    I am not having a go, I swear I just seriously don't want to see anyone (horse or human) put in a postion where they get hurt or seriously injured as a result of someone's ego. :)

    Read all you can about training, as lots of questions to local trainers and if being a trainer is truely what you want to do, you will get there... Just be careful and be aware that in many cases it is one step forwards - two steps back...
  19. ShowjumpKid4Eva

    ShowjumpKid4Eva Well-known Member

    That's ok, I just get frustrated when I have to repeat myself. Sorry if I came across as defensive/angry, I'm not... just hate repeating myself.

    The instructor I'm looking at having lessons with is also a trainer [on the small scale] and all her horses, she trained herself [some OTTBs, at least one that she broke in herself]. She's an official dressage competitor and competes in EA eventing when she has a jumping horse [her current lot are all concentrated on dressage at the moment]. She's a brilliant instructor and I get along well with her. Everything is perfect except for the fact that she doesn't travel so I have to rely on my dad to get to lessons - but dad reckons he wants me to "let him in" more and seems all for helping me get to lessons as a part of that.

    Depending on a few things, lessons are looking very likely. I sure hope they happen. PC is great but I'd like to be having more regular lessons than that.
  20. Brucey

    Brucey New Member

    I was wondering the same?

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