Let's talk about brown :)

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by Sallighted, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. Sallighted

    Sallighted Well-known Member

    Okay so a mare I have is brown, not bay but brown/black with lighter points. All parents I can find going generations back list either bay or brown. I have crossed her with a homozygous black, and am just wondering if there is ANY chance of me getting black from her (am wishing anyway:)*) Does anyone know if this brown colour is completely seperate from bay and I wonder if there is a homo/hetero thing with this colour???? I am probably not making any sense.... anyway has anyone out there ever got a black foal out of a brown mare*#)
  2. Sallighted

    Sallighted Well-known Member

    Some piccies to help...

    Before getting up the duff....

    And yesterday with 3 months to go :)
  3. Sallighted:D
    Your mare looks like a bay to me:p
    So if a sire is homozygous black and if she is a bay and heterozygous for agouti, then you'll have a 50% black or 50% bay foal.

    if she is a bay and carries red factor and homozygous for aguti then a foal will be 100% bay.

    if the mare is homozygous for black and heterozygous for agouti then you'll have 50%bay or 50% black foal.
    I hope it'll help.
  4. Natsky

    Natsky Well-known Member

    I was thinking the same Lena :confused:
  5. LoveLouie

    LoveLouie Well-known Member

    She looks more brown then bay
  6. I can clearly see the points;) brown horses are uniformly colored, there is no distinction between the body and points.
  7. Cav

    Cav Gold Member

    isnt "brown" just a dark shade of bay??

    Dark bay: very dark red or brown hair, difficult to distinguish from seal brown. Sometimes also called "black bay," "mahogany bay," or "brown."
    Blood bay: bright red hair, the shade variation often considered simply "bay."
    Brown: The word "brown" is used by some breed registries to describe dark bays. There has been a distinct allele that darkens a bay coat to seal brown (At), but it is not the cause of all forms of dark bay. Informally, "brown" applied to many distinct coat colors. Most often, horses described by casual observers as "brown" are actually bay or chestnut. Absent DNA testing, chestnut and bay can be distinguished from one another by looking at the mane, tail and legs for the presence of black points.
  8. Sallighted

    Sallighted Well-known Member

    Hmmm I know there was some discussion (cant remember if it was this site or not) that the brown colour is linked to bay but is a distinct colour although they usually get put together. I had heard that the brown is usually indicated by a uniform brown/black colour all over or indicated by a lightening of the colour around the base of the face and flanks (as shown by the mare above). In bays the brown/red colour is pretty uniform. This is only what I had heard so was just wondering how true it is and how this possible 'brown gene' would be inherited.... however I could also be totally off track:p
  9. Kate O

    Kate O New Member

    Brown is a different agouti to bay agouti. Bay (A) is dominant over brown (At), and brown is dominant over black (a). So if a horse carried bay and brown agouti - it would look bay.

    You can test for brown agouti at Pet DNA services. Your mare looks pretty classic brown to me.

  10. Sallighted

    Sallighted Well-known Member

    Cool, so is it two alleles working for this?... so I would assume that she is AtAt (as all her other history has the same colour) and crossing her with a homo stallion aa. All offspring would be brown (Ata). If the offspring Ata was crossed again with a homo black aa there would be 50/50 chance of brown or black. Hope I am getting this right:p
  11. Kate O

    Kate O New Member

    Yup, that's right. If she were AtAt, and bred to an aa stallion, the foal will be Ata (heterozygous brown), and that offspring bred on again to an aa stallion would produce Ata or aa. This is assuming one or both parents drop black (E) as well, otherwise you will end up with red, red and red (keeping in mind that chestnuts do still carry agouti, they just don't show it).

    Nice mare and good luck with your breeding!
  12. myyky

    myyky Well-known Member

    I thought bays MUST have black noses also? Doesn't look like she does..?

    Finding the genetic chat rather interesting though.
  13. Sallighted

    Sallighted Well-known Member

    Thank you! So I am going to be having an assumed brown foalie (I very much doubt mum would be hetero for At as in the 4 generations I checked every horse was listed as brown or bay. With the assumption that the bay listings would probably have actually been brown) So therefore foal will be hetero for the brown Ata. I will also assume that the foal will be 50/50 EE/Ee as I know dad is homo for it and mum is unknown (however would assume she is EE as well, which would make foal EE). So roll on end of November for my cute foalie to arrive who will be EE, Ata, Tt. So many letters.... I lurve genetics*#)
  14. Elanda

    Elanda Gold Member

    um nope;) Bays can also have the Pangare gene which will give light snozzes and light flanks:) i would call mare in photo brown though
  15. Tintara

    Tintara Well-known Member

    I agree with Lena. If you can see a distinction between the black points and the body colour the horse is generally considered to be bay. Mahogany bay for instance is one of those shades of bay still classed as bay because you can just see the black points but it borders on brown because the body colour is very dark. Your mare is a bit lighter in colour than my sister's stallion who is rego'ed as mahogany bay by the Australian Stud Book but I would still class her as mahogany bay**) .

    I have 3 browns; a standard brown ASB mare - body colour blends into black points making them indistinguishable but she has lighter soft body areas and in winter coat looks more bay than brown, a black brown pony who looks black but because he has mealy stifles and a mealy muzzle is classed as brown and a black brown miniature pony who could easily be black but probably isn't because in the sun she isn't quite black.

    Of course with DNA testing for brown agouti now available all the opinions in the world don?t mean a thing if a horse tests positive for two copies of At.
  16. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Just for interest sakes.......and to add to the conversation - what would you call this?


    Im still confused as to what colour she is?

    We are all a bit mystified as to what colour her foal will turn out to be - the sire is mahogany bay, and tends to throw the same.
  17. mylittlepony

    mylittlepony Well-known Member

    I would say she is irredescent brown. She looks very close to liver chestnut, if it wasn't for the ligher parts around her flanks and on her head. Seen a few liver TB mares very close to this colour, but not quite.
    She is lovely Eoroe, make sure there are plenty of pics when foalie arrives!**)
  18. Is she out of a dilute mare Eoroe?:)))
  19. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    I have no idea :eek: *#) OH bought her before we met....and he didnt care about that sort of stuff...... :eek:
  20. My first guess would be a burnt buckskin. But I am no expert! Lol!:p

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