Lets Blue !!!

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by Brew, May 3, 2011.

  1. Roskyle Mr GingerbreadMan

    Roskyle Mr GingerbreadMan Well-known Member

    I have gotten a good laugh out of this thread **)
    reading 40 something pages of talking about mr P and NH the night before I have 2 exams is not a good idea, sort of put me off my studying *#)
  2. BugEye

    BugEye Active Member

    Here is an exercise for you. Take a horse that has on NH or PP done with it and apply pressure to the horses more and try and make it move away from pressure. What happens? Horse moves its head away without moving its body. Now do same to horses shoulder. Horse will take a step sideways and moves its body away from pressure. The head will help control flexion and frame but not control movement. That is true natural horsemanship. Replicating what happens naturally in nature. Just as a mare does to control its foal. Never seen a horse in nature put its hoof in its mouth to change direction or stop itself. If you can understand the true basics your training will progress rapidly and smoothly
  3. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    Davrac, I'm not into NH but I believe in the teachings of TD and RH.:) This will only happen if pressure is applied wrongly causing the horses feet to "stick". We control the body by controlling the feet and we control the feet by controlling the mind and emotions. Ever seen a horse run about a round pen with the handler in the middle, the horse is galloping about looking out over the fence, seemingly oblivious to the human, turning his hindquarter toward the handler with a large jay in his tail. That is mental and physical brace which causes the horse to want to be as far away from the enviroment he is in as possible. It is upto the handler to capture his attention and get control of his mind to allow the horse to let go of his mental and physical brace, because that is not how the horse wants to be because lets face it he does not harbor that when he is roaming about at lib. Now you could say but nothing we do with a horse is natural, agreed however as the so called higher being it our responsibility to make his job as happy as possible and as stress free as possible. Too often people confuse a horses state of mind and his reactions, horses do resignation very very well.:))
  4. The thing I dislike about cutting , reining , western pleasure , hacking and yes dressage is that they are all decided on the basis of a judges opinion . If the judge is under the influence of one of the many fads that have come and gone during the thousands of years that we've used horses , or worse if the judging fraternity at large suffers the same affliction , then decisions are made , not on the horses performance or ease of handling or even their wellbeing but on some bloody theory of what they look like and how they should travel .
    Take the roll back for example . No stockman who worked cattle for a living , mustered horses , drafted store bullocks etc , ever performed a roll back , that came in during my lifetime because of the poorly balanced horses that suddenly appeared . The athleticism was so poor that this was the only way to get a turn out of them without them loosing form and therefore control .
    A horse is bred for speed , athleticism , endurance , trainability and temperament . A bloody cow is bred for meat , that's it ! Or in some cases milk and yet these so called stock horses couldn't muster the 6 old girls running in my 20ac house paddock . Madness !!
  5. Diana

    Diana Gold Member

    Totally agree.

    Even between my horses it's the same (both geldings, but Koda is the alpha male....). I was putting Dave back in the paddock after a ride and first thing Koda did after saying hi was get Dave to move to the side...and back...then away from him.

    Quite fascinating. :)* like this thread :D
  6. BugEye

    BugEye Active Member

    Must be difference in understanding of movements then. From 2 weeks of being started most horses I have dealt with will strike off on correct lead if cues are given at the correct time in the stride. No flying changes but most times correct strike off. Just comes down to understanding mechanics of it all. After all the horses are not learning anything new. They do it at play in the paddocks all by themselves. You just have to tune in and think of where the horses legs are when you give the cue. We are not students of natural horsemanship but students of nature
  7. PPH

    PPH Guest

    I actually like cutting and campdrafting because they are NOT judged by opinion, but by performance. If you can't hold the cow out or control it, it doesn't matter how pretty or well trained you and your horse are, you get marked poorly. And it does'nt take you long to learn that you get your working advantage on the cow back and hold it, much quicker if your horse can work off it's back end and rock it's weight back and come through back over it'self, than if it travels forward and motorbike turns. I notice in the better scoring cutouts in campdrafts, the best horses, even young ones, do this naturally, and is a sign of an athletic, well balanced horse.

    They might not have been named as such, but rollbacks are a movement that horses can perform naturally with or without a rider and not just by the western horse, though it has now have been refined, strengthened and perfected to a manouver or exercise with a distinct purpose.

    Cutting's heritage runs strong and deep and the cutting horse evolved in the early 1800's. During the era of the open range, cattle from one outfit often drifted and mingled with those of other outfits. Twice a year, in the spring and the fall, neighboring ranchers would join in a roundup to sort out their brands.Cattlemen gathered large herds on open plains. Individual cows had to be separated or ?cut? from the herd for branding, sending to market or driving to new sections of grazing.
    Every outfit traveled with a remuda of horses. Within the remuda each cowboy had a string of horses, some of them more suitable for one job than another. For instance, a cowhand needed a steady mount to patrol the herd during the night, but in the morning he could ride last year's bronc to the far reaches of the roundup circle.

    The cutting horse was an elite member of the remuda. A typical cutting horse might have started out in a cowboy's string, but his sensitivity to cattle brought him to the attention of the roundup boss. He was the horse that pricked his ears toward a cow and followed her with his eyes. He instinctively knew not to crowd her, yet was wary of her every move. He made the difficult job of separating cattle easier and quicker. He even made it fun.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2011
  8. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Well, i'm no where near your level, but i do agree that the horse follows it's shoulder.

    I have never seen, in a paddock situation, a horse try to move another horse by moving towards it's head/neck. They all indicated towards the shoulder or the bum.

    A horse's neck is there for balance, much like a cat's tail. Just at the other end, lol.

    You see this time and again in ridden horses that fall (or drift) to the inside or outside. If they're falling in, their inside shoulder is leading them there. And if they are falling out, again, they're going there first with the outside shoulder.

    Why are we told that if a horse is drifing in, to use the inside leg? To get them off that shoulder, so they can go straight around the circle/corner.
    Same with drifting out. You use your outside aids to correct that shoulder, and come back into line with the body so the horse can travel straight.

    And you can pull the outside rein all you like, but if a horse is falling in, unless you get that shoulder back under them, the horse is just going to go along bent the wrong way, still falling in or out. But it's not going to follow it's nose, and stop drifting in because you're pulling the outside rein.

    Unless off course you pull so hard, that you actually turn, and the horse has to go that way to re-balance.

    The horse may be bending around a corner or circle, but it's actually going straight around it if its shoulders are straight under it, leading it around the circle.

    This is why it's so important for a rider to sit straight and not lean.

    The tipping of the nose for things like turns on forehands etc is really something i've only seen in english dressage where people are heavy with their hands.
    You can tip a nose to start with, to indicate direction, but you are turning either the horse's shoulders or hindquarters with your legs.
    And again, tipping the nose, doesn't mean the horse follows it's nose. Because you are not doing the movement only with your reins. You should be doing the movement with your legs/seat.

    Another eg, is in NH stuff, where you indicate towards the shoulder to ask the horse to move out/away.
  9. Pinkie_Pie

    Pinkie_Pie Well-known Member

    This is very interesting... I'm not into dressage or showing, I just trail ride, or I will be when I'm confident enough... Anyway... When I'm trotting my mare in a straight line she drifts to the right. And it's not just me she does it to, it's everyone so I don't think it's something I'm doing. What would be the best way to correct it? :)

    ETA: Say left or right this/that... I get confused otherwise! lol
  10. lollipop

    lollipop Active Member

    The first question to ask is why does a horse lay his shoulder in or worse drop his shoulder. The answer lies in the back end of the horse, if the horse is on the forehand or lacks true impulsion he will automatically transfer weight onto his front end and many associated problems occur when this happens. At the same time a horse will develop stiffness issues from travelling incorrectly, the two go hand in hand. True impulsion comes from creating impulsion behind and allowing the horse to obtain a collected front end frame. Impulsion cannot be achieved by holding in the front end and driving the hind end to meet it. Dullness is created by doing this hence the need for bigger bits, harder hands and associated forms of constraint, ie martingales, nosebands etc. True softness is obtained by the horse finding his way to education not being forced to obtain education, and for both his mental, physical and emotional being soft.:))
  11. Brew

    Brew Well-known Member

    Pinkie Pie - Do you change diagonals when trotting in a straight line ?? Often you will find that you sit the same diagonal all the time and this causes the horse to devlop uneveness and this will lead to drifting.
  12. Pinkie_Pie

    Pinkie_Pie Well-known Member

    I'll have to check, Brew :p She's fairly new to me. Had her about 6 months, only recently started feeling comfortable enough to trot with her... Thanks :)
  13. PPH , Your point about campdrafting is a valid one . there are are actually guidlines for the judge to use in scoring that mean everyone on the ground watching will have a pretty fair idea what the score will be . For the uninitiated , basically the closer you are to the beast , the closer you take it to the pegs , the better your score (outside) . In the camp it's similar but the judge can use a fair bit of discretion on how difficult your beast is to hold and how clever your horse has to work to hold it .
    I made the point about the rollback because the arguments back and forth on how to do it were giving me the willies ! If it's what floats your boat , by all means do it , as far as I'm aware it doesn't hurt them .
    Thankyou for the indepth look at the origins of cutting , a lot of thought and work went into that and it made for interesting reading . Have you ever cut cattle out on an open camp ? I don't mean a few mates having fun somewhere (nothing wrong with that) . I mean out where there were no yards , no fences , and cattle had to be drafted for miserable multi-nationals who counted every penny and a head stockman whose reputation would not allow him to do a substandard job . I have , and I can assure you the cutter is nothing like the fair dinkum "earns his living" camp horse . I'm not nocking you here , I just used that as an example of how judges opinions (and other factors) can allow competitive horse sports to evolve to something thats a long way away from the principles and objectives of the activities that they were based on .:}

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