I have a reason to smile

Discussion in 'Horse Riding' started by Coliban Quarter Horse Stud, Jun 18, 2013.

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  1. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    Oh yes....my World involves alfoil headdress apparently :rolleyes:

    retro, you're being rather tenacious about this post :blink:
     
  2. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    I bet your world only involves cooking with alfoil :p

    I am not having a go wattle, truly, I think it is super when we have good debates...how BORING when there is none!! There are so many ways to Rome in horse training and this subject is definitely one that really depends on where you come from and what world of horses is normal for you!

    Truly, I am not trying to change your mind or anyone's (truly don't change!)....just trying to show that what you think is RIGHT is really what YOU know about and you think is RIGHT. In my world horses get started young...when they are ready....the way you train it is important for longevity. Starting late, in my world...is considered a bad idea and extra stressful for the horse....but it all comes down to training and training without RESISTANCE! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  3. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    You're right :) What we know, what we grow up in, what we're surrounded by, is what we accept as norm.

    I'm trying to think of things that I cook with alfoil....it's on the bottom of my oven, does that count?
     
  4. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Definitely counts :) definitely not on your head!

    Not sure if this guy has been on SYs before but even this can be normal for some people:

    Gert van den Hof Zadelmak maken deel 3 manege Bakker - YouTube

    It is not in English but this is how this guy starts horses! Leads them around for a few minutes and then gets on with a war bridle and jump saddle and off he goes with his brother keeping the horse moving with a lunge whip! :eek:

    He gets on at 6 mins if you want to cut to the getting on bit :/

    It is just another road to Rome! Not the way I would ever choose but an alternative with pros and cons and inspires opinions! *#)
     
  5. Trojane

    Trojane Well-known Member

    Welcome to the forum Taleah :) I'm always keen to see pics and progress of a Coliban babe.
    Since being on Stockies I've enjoy watching each year's batch arrive, picked out a favourite or two,
    and then wondered what became of them and how they are going under saddle.

    Your Strawberry gal looks great and I hope you'll post more of her.
     
  6. PPH

    PPH Guest

    welcome to the forum Tahleah85.:)

    I am not going to even enter the age to be broken debate, each to their own and it's really down to the individual horse and person.

    Can I ask what sort of bridle that is though. I have a few different styles of one eared bridles but they look different than that.

    cheers and goodluck with her.
     
  7. Sugar's Mum

    Sugar's Mum Gold Member

    I love debates :)

    the first horse I broke in was 2 years old when I got on his back. I had talked to people I thought knowledgeable at the time and decided that that was the right thing for us.

    He was a QH thank goodness because I look back and think that I did so many things in the ignorance and arrogance of my late teens early twenties that could have really gone pear shaped but his beautiful temperment meant he forgave an awful lot.

    I could not ever go past a QH for temperment. He was and will always remain in my memory a wonderful horse who was so responsive.

    However I totally believe that he was broken in and ridden too early. He started to get a dropped back around 17 and I had to ahve him put to sleep when he was 20. He was an old old man by then, loosing strength, no longer sure footed he fell once under saddle and rthat was the last time I rode him but the kicker was he was totally and absolutely blind and I was terrified he was going to run through a fence and injure himself, a very real possibility as he was agisted near some young boys who I had seen chasing stock in the paddock next door.

    When I got Satin I was determined that she was not going to be started before 4. Then I talked to a well respected trainer who starts hers at two, has a few rides, throws them out again, has a few rides at three, then again at three and a half when she starts building up the amount of rides and the work load.

    So I started Satin, put a light rider on her a few times after working in the round yard. After a few weeks of one led ride a week i had I htink three very short walks on her and I have kicked her back out again.

    I dont think she likes my weight and I am worried that I am too heavy for her. I am thinking about starting her in harness to get some training in her that is not weight bearing but if I dont get around to fixing my cart then I will just leave her be in teh paddock with a bit of work in hand to build our relationship but I certainly wont be working her under saddle anymore until she is 4. Even then I may decide that she does not have the strength she will need to cope with the heavy rider that I am now. (27 years, 2 kids and emotional eating have added a lot of kilos to my 20 year old body lol)

    I personally think that if not worked for long periods of time and the starting is gentle (Not forced), and the weight being carried is not excessive then the muscles are strong enough and the joints elastic enough to cope with a short workload (I am talking get on, have a happy walk,trot and stop) as long as the horse is not ridden till the muscles are tired, or the load is not too heavy to start with the horse will do well to have a gentle introduction to riding.

    I wont ever work a horse at 2 years old as if it were a mature horse. I still feel that I contributed to my Boy's sunken back by riding too early for too long at a time.
     
  8. GoneRama

    GoneRama Gold Member

    Well this is an interesting read.

    I agree with Retro, this horse is not broken in by any stretch of the imagination, it's started, that's all. It's had 3 rides for crying out loud and this in itself opens up a whole nother can of good hearty debate about the definition of the term 'broken in' :rolleyes:

    Someone brought up the horror at this horse jumping into water, ummm I took that to mean the horse didn't resist and gladly powered into the water. 'Jumping into water' I take to mean a horse that was eager to get into that dam. Obviously the user of this terminology didn't set up a 3 foot log on the side of the dam and jump the filly into it Badminton style :rolleyes: At least give them the benefit of the doubt for crying out loud.

    I don't see a horse that is unimpressed with the spark gone from her eye I see a horse that is attentive to its rider and trying to figure out what this strange thing is on her back. I'm sure we've all shared photos where our horses look less than impressed, why is this one any different ';'

    I look forward to the day that I share progress photos of my Coliban kid :stir:
     
  9. monomeeth

    monomeeth Well-known Member

    I think there is a large amount of wiggle room between leaving a horse in the paddock untouched till they are five, and getting on a two year old (or less) and damaging its joints. I have no problem at all with doing heaps of stuff with young ones, everything but spend a lot of time on their back or lunging them a lot. Those are the two things that will shorten the useful life of a horse. I know that people in a hurry for the gongs or who want money fast from selling a going horse might not care about the other end of their life, but for the horses, and for folks like me who want to keep our horses as long as we can, it is not fair.

    Having had to put down a beloved mare at 13 who was already ruined in the joints at 8 by someone riding her too hard too young, I am very emotionally attached to this topic. I've just bought an 18 mth old and one of my reasons for going for a young one was so that I can bring him on slowly. I plan on having lots of fun with him for a few years yet before my big bum hits that saddle.

    Cheers,

    Mono
     
  10. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    No, don't let the few make you think that.....and yes, I have revisited Deb's first rides of her horse today. I was sure it was about the same age :unsure: A cpl of years down the track, it's easy to forget where your own horse was at.
     
  11. Taleah85

    Taleah85 New Member

    So, in response to who ever said I joined to comment?? I didn't know this site existed. I'm busy with work, competition and my riding school.. On another note Deb - u have so much to comment on a person u don't even know nor my methods - I found a post on you and ur very young horse Shiloh. So many stones for living in a glass house?!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2013
  12. The buzz

    The buzz New Member

    I've often wondered whilst reading this post and a similar one what are the benefits for starting young? We've all heard the negatives. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Just curious as to why someone would choose this road?
     
  13. Black Ice

    Black Ice Well-known Member

    Well personally, to ME, I think the horse just looks embarrassed and unimpressed with the pink bridle and lime green boots that Tahleah is making the poor girl wear :p :D
     
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Firstly, joint degeneration is not necessarily connected to starting early, there are so many factors that increase the risk. Most of the studies and opinions about the starting of young horses is centred around race horses, not pleasure horses...so it is a big misconception to say that if I start your horse at 2 or 3 I am going to wreck it's joints!! There are criticism about hard core training to compete horses in young horse events and futurities....but again not thoughtful training that is taken patiently!

    The positives of starting a horse early is that you open the horse to the concept of learning and introducing the horse to do its job. I don't like using human analogies but should you leave your child till it is 5 before you try to introduce it to social norms, say like toilet training? Or do you not let your child learn ballet until they have finished growing at say 22? Do you then take it really slow and only make them practice ballet once a week so their muscles and fitness never develop?

    A key to a well broke, calm and respectful horse is consistent work.....waiting and waiting...playing a little here and a little there ...leaving it and leaving it a bit longer is a recipe for trouble with your young horse....they do well when they are introduced to their job early, get out and about and exposed to the world and develop a work ethic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  15. South Boulder Boy

    South Boulder Boy Well-known Member

    Oh so I was a little naughty and also did a search. Strawberry may still be a baby but she looks a lot stockier and slightly more mature than Shiloh did at her 4th ride (where she had also been cantered under saddle) and really she wasn't that much older.

    So whilst I understand some are concerned about starting age its probably not wise for the pots to be calling the kettle black. Even if you don't agree with what you did yourself in the past your advice will fall on deaf ears as all people will see is 'well you did it'.

    That's all I'm going to say as no point me entering this debate.
     
  16. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    It is perfectly possible to teach a horse to have manners, to be calm in new place, to respect you etc etc and to 'be open to the concept of learning' without sitting on it's back! (To toilet train it, so to speak). My own youn horse was ponies from another, attended clinics, went to Pony Club as a spectator and had solid ground manners before be was started at 3 and 1/2. I don't think suggesting someone wait till a horse is threeish before sitting on it is analogous to a 22 year old.... More like 15 or 16 maybe? And we've all seen Eastern European gymnasts who trained before puberty disappear from competition by the age of 20 because their bones and joints were stuffed, if we're going to drag in human analogies.
    With all due respect South Boulder Boy there IS a lot of difference between the skeletal maturity of a 3 year old (Shilo - I had a look too) and a 21 month old. An extra 12 months for Strawberry would make her 50% older...! And this is the point - Strawberry may LOOK more mature but it is a matter of objective fact that her bones won't be.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  17. I_love_equines

    I_love_equines Well-known Member

    Well said CTCT :)
     
  18. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Your the ones all worried about horses being fully developed, if you take males, well at 22 years you can say they have finished growing....and 25 if you want to say full brain development!

    Yes, lots of gymnasts and ballet dancers with buggered joints, usually those that really completed or performed extensively...kind of like futurity event training, but most kids who grow up with a bit of dancing and gym grow up healthy and perfectly fine :).

    If you have started young horses you would know that sitting on a horses back and being above the horse introduces a whole different world and is a completely different kettle of fish....a whole new level of pressure. If taking a horse out and leading it around and doing ground work was all that was required, horse training would be a piece of cake! It is a good foundation to use but on their back is how you develop the overall obedience and calmness.

    I thought the lovely Shilo was probably 8 months older (2.5 years) :p. Actually, if you want a horse to mature up....start it, they actually muscle up...that is what going to work does :). You also don't know at all about this horse's bones...you are talking about the AVERAGE horse, without being able to examine this horse's skeleton and x-raying it all you are doing is making an assumption! And that is on top of the assumption that a handful of rides will be detrimental!

    I have an opinion based on experience, you have an opinion based on assumptions...both valid but the facts will only be revealed in time :))
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  19. I_love_equines

    I_love_equines Well-known Member

    If we're going to get really technical, I think you're making an assumption about CTCT's opinions being based on assumptions alone and not evidence RR. I don't know who you are, you don't know who I am, or probably who most people are in this thread or what their levels of experience or knowledge are, and neither do I.

    Coliban, Deb is not the only one with concerns or a differing point of view??? Thanks Mod 7 **).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  20. The buzz

    The buzz New Member

    I'm surprised the pro starting posters are yet to give a good explanation on the benefits for starting young. I know if i had a young horse and was experienced id love to hope on it as soon as possible.

    Someone mentioned that starting young will allow a horse to know its job better and open its mind but why is this better at two than say four? Has it been proven that the horses brain is more responsive then? Does this benefit outweighs the risk of joint damage? Can you not open its mind without weight bearing excercises?

    I would love to hear both sides of the story as I come on SY to learn all things horses.

    By the way I am talking about pleasure horses not race horses as I realize race horses are a complete different story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
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