Help my gelding is a rig???

Discussion in 'Problem Horses' started by Marisi, Jul 26, 2008.

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  1. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Jess it is not NATURAL for geldings to serve mares. That's a fact.

    Mares can be damaged in a few ways......they can be hurt in the "teasing" phase (kicked, bitten ect), they can be hurt internally and they can be hurt via transmitted diseases that pass from gelding to mare and mare to mare.

    A mare's reproduction can be ruined by diseases, even maiden mares can get infections from other mares!

    There are protocols that STALLION owners use to reduce infection risk ect so as to protect mare and stallion (and in turn other mares in the herd).....thats good stud management and that would be considered "normal" practise.

    So there is a huge difference between a mare being at stud to be served hoping to produce a foal the following season, and a mare at stud being served by a gelding who thinks he is a stallion.

    I do not know of a single commercial stud that would allow a gelding to serve mares...either their own or clients.
  2. Scarlet

    Scarlet Well-known Member

    We are a small stud, run in partnership with our farm etc but we would NEVER dream of letting a mare be mounted by a gelding.....we have in the past used a gelding as a 'teaser' for shy/maiden mares, he was simply allowed to sniff noses whilst being held with the mares and we would gauge where the mare was at by the reactions of both the mare & gelding....currently we simply just lead the mare (after being needled and judged to be nearly 'ready' next to the stallions paddock where we have a special section designed for teasing and allow him to sniff noses and judge, again, on reactions as to the readiness of the mare, if she is willing we then put her in the paddock with the stallion for the day and let nature take it's course...we are lucky we are small so we can be there and do this!

    ALL mares (including our own!!!!) must be swabbed and certified clean before they are allowed near our stallion, maiden or not, no swab, no service!

    Jess - horses will be horses and yes, some geldings will behave mroe like a stallion than others but it is not 'normal' for a gelding to actually serve a mare...some may mount them but to actually serve them is not normal.

    As for the rig part - been there, bought the T-shirt and paid the price!!! Bought a lovely ISH 'gelding', took him to breaker to be backed, phone call 2 days later to say I think he is a rig, trundle to vets, tests confirm he is, testes removed however enough of cord ( I think that was it anyway) was there to produce testosterone and produce stallionlike attitudes etc, vets could not guarantee that op would fix him as they could not guarantee that they could find/remove cord and horse was PTS...........
  3. horse girl Jess

    horse girl Jess Well-known Member

    I wouldn't encourage allowing a gelding to mount a mare, nor was I suggesting that. I just said I wasn't going to take sides. What I was trying to say was that people treat horses like something they are not. A gelding is a horse, whether he is a rig or not. Just because he doesn't have testicles it does not mean that he's going to damage the mare through any of his stallion like behaviours (how is his gear some how more damaging?). A rig, or a gelding acting like a rig, is not necessarily going to hurt a mare is all I was trying to say. I'm certainly not promoting allowing a gelding to serve a mare, just trying to get people to stop thinking of horses as incompetent animals that always need our pedantic interferance.

    As for the spreading of sexaully transmitted diseases, you should always have your mares/stallions regularly swabbed (ideally after every serve). If you know your breeding animals are free of diseases, it doesn't really matter if they get a little close for comfort with each other (unless you don't want offspring!).
  4. mylittlepony

    mylittlepony Well-known Member

    Id just like to point out that the gelding and EVERY SINGLE MARE is swabbed and must be clean before they go into the herd. That is something that is always done, WITHOUT FAIL.

    and EVP, you must not know many commercial TB studs. As I know several who do this.
    mares are no more likely to be kicked or bitten by Red, than they are the other mares in the group.

    also his "bits" are not even half the size of the stallions
  5. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Jess there are no "sides" to the thread :} Geldings should not serve mares. Its the whole point in GELDING male horses so that they don't have the urge to serve mares. And a gelding/rig serving mares IS a potential risk to those mares......just as there is potential for a stallion to injure or infect a mare. There is a HUGE difference between the job of a "teaser" and the "stallion" that will impregnant the mare. Teasers are used in a great majority of studs and are a valued tool in preparation of the mare and gauging her receptiveness......but they certainly don't let the teaser (gelding or otherwise) SERVE the mare!!!!!!!!!!!! *horror*

    Its black and white here.....and keeping to the is not normal for geldings to serve mares nor is it normal stud practise to allow it.
    Anyone in doubt should do some reading, netting or ask good studs about the issue.
    Last edited: May 1, 2010
  6. mylittlepony

    mylittlepony Well-known Member

    I have worked on TB studs all my life. Several of them are very well known commercial studs.

    We all have different experiences at different places, I fail to see the point in continuing this discussion any firther, when you seem to know it all EVP.:D

  7. sil

    sil Gold Member

    I have a gelding who is most definitely not a rig, however he is quite masculine and I have seen him fully serve one of my own mares, once.

    He is a bit of a monkey sometimes but no problem otherwise. Doesn't bother me in the slightest; as the vet says, "we cut out their balls, not their brains!"
    Last edited: May 1, 2010
  8. Narbeyda

    Narbeyda New Member

    Can't believe this thread is still going, geldings should not serve mares and stallions should do it as little as possible.
    Everytime a mare is served is one more chance of getting infection. Everytime a stallion serves a mare he can introduces bacteria, faeces, tail hair, dirt etc Even with the most care taken eg tail bandages cleaning mare and stallion etc bugs can get in so just imagine some random gelding serving mares willy nilly. Also mares need time between services for their body to heal and deal with what comes with service. This is why we allways try to serve only once on day 4-5 of season and only again if mare is still in two days later. Serving geldings is not common stud practice.
  9. horse girl Jess

    horse girl Jess Well-known Member

    EVP your getting your self worked up and going around in circles... I was not, and am not suggesting that a gelding should be allowed to serve a mare so there's no point ranting on about it to me (hence why I said I'm not taking sides). And as far as I can see people are taking sides, either your against allowing geldings to serve mares or you are for it ;)

    I was not commenting on geldings being allowed to display this kind of behaviour, I was commenting on something completely different. I was just trying to say that people get too prissy with their horses and forget that they are competent animals. If you missed the point or I didn't make my self clear don't get your self into a tiz...
  10. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Definately no tizz......I just happen to know what is considered appropriate recognised stud practise and what is not. Letting a gelding serve a mare is not recognised commercial stud practise. That some people do it or approve of it does not make it either advisable or acceptable. People operate outside recognised standards all the time......lolol Speaking as both a mare owner and a breeding association member.......while some geldings might get up to some hanky panky if given the opportunity, it is NOT considered normal for a stud to allow it to happen as routine practise.

    Sorry, but its not a matter of taking sides or believing that horses should be allowed to be horses.....its all about what is considered breeding industry standard practise. Imagine getting a phone call from a "stud" where you sent your mare to be bred and the caller informs you "Ah look your mare was injured by our gelding that she was in with. He was mounting and serving her and it looks like she has some internal tearing"
    Now either that would mean a mare couldn't be bred until she healed, might miss the season, or wouldn't breed ever again..............
    I'm wondering if these so called "studs" that allow this would flush the mares after the gelding/rig had done his deed? Or are they supposed to continue through their cycle with fluid and potential contaminates collecting inside?

    The list is endless on the risks...........there isn't a single "good" point about it!
  11. horse girl Jess

    horse girl Jess Well-known Member

    You've missed my point... I don't know any other way to explain what I ment or explain to you that what you are trying to tell me, has nothing to do with my origional post. It was nothing to do with letting mares be covered with geldings (which I don't agree with anyway, now I'm taking a side).
  12. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    This was your original post?

    My follow on posts addressed the issues you mentioned.

    To get some idea about the nature of breeding mares, the issue of their reproductive health, and good stud management I again suggest you do some reading or net searches.

    The thread had little to do with horses being made out to be something they are was about geldings/rigs serving mares and why this is not considered "normal"...........everyone who owns a horse knows that horses like to play rough sometimes, geldings can be interested in mares, and mares can be interested in mares....all to the point of jumping on or getting razzed up..................the thread was about geldings/rigs ACTUALLY penetrating mares.
  13. horse girl Jess

    horse girl Jess Well-known Member

    "I wouldn't encourage allowing a gelding to mount a mare, nor was I suggesting that."
    "I was not, and am not suggesting that a gelding should be allowed to serve a mare so there's no point ranting on about it to me"
    Ok, is it not clear from my previous posts that I don't agree with allowing mares to be covered by a gelding? I'm sure I don't have to repeat it again in another way.

    "You've missed my point..."
    "It was nothing to do with letting mares be covered with geldings (which I don't agree with anyway, ..."
    My origional post was NOT relating to allowing geldings to cover mares, reading back on it I can see where you got confused, but I did try to tell you on several occassion that it was not what I origionally intended to get across.

    What I was commenting on, was that people treat their horses like toys and not living animals. There were comments on geldings which I thought were unrealistic. There was a comment on mares kicking out when being served because the males were heavy (I can't see how this would be different from a gelding to a stallion? And in most cases she would kick because she is not ready, nto because she's impatient). There was also a comment on how geldings can internally damage a mare by serving her, some how I cannot see how testicles make one suddenly know what they are doing. Mating IS natural, whether they are entire or not, it's just not considered NORMAL for a gelding to do this (nor is it usually acceptable). You cannot say it's not normal when it's the horses natural hormones that are driving the process (if the gelding was unnaturally induced with testosterone, like some rigs are, then it become unnatural because of the human intervention). My comment about people forgetting about letting horses be horses isn't just limited to this subject, it was in general, I was just sparked to say it because of the comment on geldings and why some how people view them as something different to stallions (in the end they are all horses).

    Can I just say one more time that no I don't agree with letting geldings cover mares? EVP can you see that it's not what I was trying to say? I still don't know if I've got my point across.
  14. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    I still don't quite get from what angle you are coming from but as a breeder I can tell you that mares DO get injured by stallions...the risk of this is greater if stallions breed mares in a paddock situation (ie: without human supervision, in hand ect) Plus there is the risk of a stallion transmitting disease if rigious protocols are not followed , and risks that mares might not evacuate products after mating causing problems. These are risks a mare owner takes when trying to breed a foal.........they are not risks that a mare owner should take by letting a gelding/rig fool around. And why would a mare owner be happy playing Russian roulette with their mare's fertility, when the risks are high enough breeding legitimately to a stallion to get a foal?????????????
    There is plenty of information out there about good breeding practises and how to protect and enhance a mares reproductive soundness. Obviously the more valuable the mare the more care will be, or should be taken to preserve her fertility. Allowing a gelding/rig to interfere with that is ludicrious and is not what the term "teaser" is all about. Otherwise they would call them "doers" not "teasers".
  15. horse girl Jess

    horse girl Jess Well-known Member

    I wasn't saying that the mares can't be hurt, I was making the comparison between geldings and stallions (one isn't necessarily going to be more likely to cause damage than the other, this was in reference to someone comment about this earlier). I wasn't commenting on the topic in general, just several comments that were made, does that make more sense?
  16. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Nope. Geldings could mount or serve a mare when she wasn't ready because they have lost some of their hormone recepitiveness, geldings/rigs might not have the same amount of care taken in regards to cleanliness, geldings/rigs might not have had tests and swabs done.

    Its just not as simple as saying "one wouldn't do more damage than the other", there should be no need to work out any parellels or what equals shouldn't happen full stop.

    Any further info you need check out a good equine repro site.
  17. mylittlepony

    mylittlepony Well-known Member

    id just like to point out that my boy is very very good at picking the mares at the "right time". he has been with probably a couple of hundred mares in the last few years and have never seen him try and get "rejected" by the mare, and every mare that he has mounted, we have PALPed and mares have been ready to serve with the stallion. Red is VERY good at his little part time job, in in the YEARS he has been doing it, he has not injured a mare and no mare (or him) has ever returned a dirty swab.
    Yes EVP accidents happen, horses get hurt, mares get dirty. but that is life. we cant wrap them up in cotton wool.
    And Im not saying ALL studs do this, but A LOT do. You would be very surprised. Also you keep pointing out that people need to go "read up" on things. There are not many studs that do everything by the book, and there is a lot that goes on that the "outside" world has no idea about and will never hear about. Some things you have to experience for yourself, reading doesnt teach all.
  18. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    MLP are you saying that the horse you mention (Red) is a gelding/rig or a serving stallion?
    When you mention "swab" do you mean that mares are routinely swabbed prior to breeding?
    Yes unfortunately there are studs that operate outside standard industry practise, and there always will be. It is up to mare owners to ask questions, inspect if possible and get informed about what is "normal" and what is "not".
    That way they will be able to judge a stud on where it sits on the issue of those standards. For the protection of their mare's life-time fertility, a mare owner needs as much information as they can get because waiting to "learn it" means that it might be learnt the hard way.
  19. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Stallions harbour many kinds of potentially pathogenic and non-pathogenic bacteria on their external genitalia, particularly in the prepuce and associated smegma. The stallion does not usually suffer clinical signs and the bacteria are more important for their effect on the fertility of his mares. Bacteria isolated may be classified according to their effect on the mare:

    1. Those organisms not associated with infection and endometritis in the mare,

    2. Organisms capable of causing infection and endometritis in mares who have depressed local natural defence mechanisms (e.g. Streptococcus zooepidemicus (,6-haemolytic streptococci), Staphylococcus aureus (coagulase-positive), haemolytic E. coli.

    3. Organisms capable of causing primary infection and endometritis in mares with normal local defence mechanisms, and outbreaks of venereal disease, e.g. some Klebsiella, some strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa and T. equigenitalis.

    Any of these organisms may be mechanically transmitted directly into the uterus of the mare at coitus. It is impossible to sterilize the penis and prepuce before service and coitus results in further bacterial challenge to the endometrium showing no clinical signs himself. Similarly, with contagious equine metritis stallions show no systemic signs during an outbreak.

    For the detection of possible venereal-disease-producing bacteria on the genital organs of stallions, swabs should be taken from the urethra, urethral fossa, prepuce and pre-ejaculatory fluid on a number of occasions.
  20. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

    I would be furious if i found out my mare had been "teased" by a gelding in this way. It is downright disgusting practice for a stud to allow such behaviour from a gelding. There is way too much risk associated with being mounted by a stallion just the once!!! but a risk you take during live cover, not a risk you take for a practice run!!! I have to agree with EVP on this one.......
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