Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by Sharaway, Sep 15, 2010.
i feel sick to my stomach
I can see why these bits will create lightness, ones the horse has experienced the pain they will cause it wouldn't dare risk being reminded again.
When a plain snaffle bit can cause severe damage to a horse these just do my head in, I hate to think what it would do to a horse if you dropped the reins and the horse stood on them.
I wouldn't even know how to put it on my horse, sad to think of all the hands let alone inexperienced hands it could get into
Love this quote ! Can I use that ? )
Thank you , SHARAWAY for exposing the equipment and mindset that has crept in and completely surrounded me in *some* of the circles I move in . The leverage , combo aspect is new to me , but the attitude that "frightened of the bit" is somehow a substitute or even equal to "light" is all too common .
Its important that these matters be discussed , its also important for those who can , to get out to as many different events as they can , as often as they can , and set as good an example as they can . Not easy I know , I've got a family to feed , a mortgage that "tomboy" couldn't jump over , and a small rundown farm that wont run itself , and the 3 or 4 times a year that I get "out and about" is just not enough .
I've tried to make this point before and made a complete balls of it , but I think its important , so here goes !
There are quirks , nuances , issues if you like within the stockhorse events that a competitor needs to address if he/she wants to be competitive , the traditional equestrian world could help so much in this regard but,
1. They have to be interested enough to help .
2. They have to be aware of what these issues are (thats what I'm here for , so please ask)
3. The help ,if and when it comes has to be in plain , very simple english that mugs like me can understand !
Sorry SH , I've crashed your post , I'm getting good at that !
BB its a good reason to stay home sometimes... its like discussing things with a lamppost some of the people I have seen. Lets Crank it, instead of putting time and effort into training!
These look like they belong in the dark ages
Maybe there slogan should be "why bother to train, just give them pain"
It was a sad day for the horse world when some cruel mind came up with these.#(#(#(
Step 1 -Have a flick through the prominent Australian horse magazine that focuses largely on SJ/eventing/Dressage on national and international scale.
Step 2 - Find a story featuring XC pics
Step 3 - Ta dah - these bits in action.
A while ago, I saw a picture with what resembled one of these bits in the said magazine. Horse ridden by prominent Australian rider. A fellow stockie got in contact with this rider to ask what bit she was riding in and we were told a hackamore/bit combo that "is very light when used correctly".
Doesn't look too light to me #(#(
But then again, I don't do XC so I wouldn't know how/why to use one of these bits.
I don't know about the ones you posted Sharaway but I do knowabout the Nathe combination bit. It isnot jointed like the ones you have put up. We tried it because Skito did not want to do another lesson in a pelham. Her horse is sensitive so put something in his mouth that doesn't like and it's likely he would explode. Riding in the pelham did not make her feel safe or comfortable. Her horse travelled beautifully in the Nathe and when I get home I will put some photos up for you.
BTW Chris Chugg uses the same combination on Vivant. I watched them at the HOTY in NZ. That combination are amazing and real show stoppers. Vivant was happy and relaxed, did amazing canter piroettes fir the crowd before jumping 1.60 tracks. If the combination bit was as painful as you are implying then you wouldn't see such happy relaxed horses travelling in them.
I have also seen Dobbo using one.... Horse went beautifully. Stallions do not take kindly to harsh treatment. If those riders treated their horses badly they wouldn't be competing internationally at the level they are and they ride in combination bits all the time.
I may have had a similar reaction as you once but gave changed my mind as I learnt more.
However any bit can be harsh is the hands holding them are
i googled the Nathe - it doesnt look anywhere near as harsh as these ones posted - it looks like a thick rubber snaffle bit with the rubber covered hackamore over top.
i shudder at the sight of the ones you posted Sharaway! those horrible twisted bits of metal - soft hands or not - that just sitting in the mouth would not be nice!
Not the greatest photos, but this is the Nathe..
Fergus gets offended with bits very easily - even some snaffles he wont tolerate. He has an incredibly soft mouth and is very rideable on the flat and at home - but take him out and hes completely different. Being a super sensitive horse that is a little "full on and exhuberant" its important i have control WITHOUT offending him.. An offended Fergus will no doubt turn himself inside out and back to front. Alot of hackamore bit combinations allow you to have a pressure on their nose as well as a contact to the mouth - alot of bits LOOK harsh... but they arent.
I am pretty fussy about what goes into my horses mouth - and from now on its either a Hackamore Bit Combination or a KK training snaffle..
How do we know just from photos how harsh that bit is or how strong the horse is.. What works for some horses doesnt work for others. What some riders believe is right, others dont..
As a rider of a strong performance horse - I will use what works. Something that is comfortable for him and gives me ultimiate control..
Who is to judge about bits ??? no one... everyone is different, every horse is different..
As Samm said - a bit is only as harsh as the person using it.. *
It isnt a Mullen Mouth - it has a flat french link join and is quite a thin bit - he worked beautifully in it.
My photos dont want to work
looking forward to the photos when you can figure then out Skito.
I found our western hackamore (Bosal no bit) was very effective and our horse was extremely happy in it. However I also know htat in the wrong hands it would be a disaster. If you did not have hands that could give at all times then you would be in big trouble with it. Not a bit for a beginner rider but certainly achieved what we needed it to.
A calm relaxed horse who listened at all times.
I cannot believe what is out there now.
A lot of the problem is, a lot of riders?????? just cant ride, but just sit on a horse and say look at me, aren't I good etc. without realising what they are doing to the horse.
One of the classics that I came across in one of the rings that I was judging in, was in a riding class for children 10 to 13. I noticed this rider, going around and appeared to be riding fairly well, so I called her in to the ring. I then followed up with a few others and dismissed the ones that were left.
I then walked along the riders to give them a workout instruction and as I did, ran my finger along the inside of the bit. Bingo, I found a piece of thin wire in the horses mouth, attached to the bit, which, when pulled on would be very painful to the horse and of course, if the rider was rough, could really damage the horses mouth.
I then sent the rider to the bottom of the line, no questions asked. I found this contraption on two other riders and did the same thing.
Finally, I ended up with my three placed riders, but all hell let loose after I had dismissed the rest of the ring. Mothers and fathers, sister and brothers came from everywhere, wanting to know why little Molly didn't win her class etc, and why I had dropped them from the top of the line right down and didn't ask for a workout. I wont go into what I said to the lot of them, but started a trend with quite a few well known Judges over here.
I dont know if they check it out now, as I dont go to to many shows any longer and dont judge anymore in the open rings, only in the beginner rings, where usually I can be of help, but you can bet you life, that there will be many a cruel means with bits that will be invented to help a person who doesn't have decent hands/ seat to help? them to win ribbons etc.
The whole thing disgusts me.
What you came across was not a hackamore bit combination Widgelli but something totally different.
To imply that someone who uses a hackamore bit combination cannot ride is a very long way off base.
I have seen them used by Olympians and I am sure even you wouldn't say that those athletes that have reached the pinnicle of success in their chosen disaplines got there by just sitting on their horse saying look at me.
What some kid does in a hack ring is a far cry from riding a top level performance horse at a high level.
I read our full reply on my iphone and it was very good. i was a bit surprised to see you edited it all away
That said I can understand why you might. BTW, I bought the Myler today to see how it goes. Since our nathe was stolen Fergus has only been ridden in a KK french snaffle. He went so well in the nathe I was tempted to get another but they are so expensive....hence the Myler
KC , I don't think anyone here has a problem with the hackamore (mechanical or californian) , and if there is a problem with an ordinary snaffle then we're all guilty ! I'd say a combo of the two is not going to create waves , but if your using or advocating twisted wire mouthpieces , chain over the nose etc ,your going to come under fire and rightly so !
I dont use those and i can only speak for something I have tried. Twisted wire bits and chains over the nose is not something would try, however I probably would not have triend the nathe if I saw a photo of it.
We only tried it because we were offered a loan of one one instead of using a pelham. Considering how much Fergus hated the pelham we were prepared to try it. This was in a clinic situation with Chris Chugg. Fergus went beautifully in it, it was not harsh or cruel....he loved it.
Its fine for people to make judgements from a photo but unless you have seen it in action or tried it yourself I am afriad I am going to take those opinions with a grain of salt. I have learnt through experience not to judge so harshly when I have no actual experience with the topic in question.
As much as I value the opinions of many on here and understand where they are coming from I can only base my opinions on what I know or have experienced myself and in the world i travel in I have only ever seen one horse travel poorly in a combination hackamore bit.
Glad to hear you like my opinion. Sometimes seems easier to bite my toungue...goodluck with the Myler its a good bit.
I think this is it KC?