Gah! I am getting really frustrated....

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by Jemima, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. LisaJ

    LisaJ Well-known Member

    I wonder what the best Horsenality/Parelli/Monty Roberts method of approach to an abandoned uncatchable, aggressive when cornered horse would be??? Any suggestions ??? No it is not my horse.
     
  2. Jemima

    Jemima Active Member

    Mine would be bribery and corruption (food :) )!
     
  3. Warren

    Warren New Member

    Wattle, I was not saying Retro was rude for having a different perspective. I was saying she was rude for being obtuse, deliberately missing the point of what CTCT, LB and I had said and insinuating for the umpteenth time that the three of us don't know the first thing about handling horses. Although she said she was being cheeky and inserted an "embarrassed" smiley it seemed to me that she was being rude.

    Retro has since stated again that she did indeed intend to be cheeky so I will accept that.

    I think you have missed the point as well Wattle. By treating horses as individuals it is possible to get the best out of each horse, it is not a way of creating "similar problems" as you seem to think. It makes no difference if people have one horse or many, each horse must be treated in a manner appropriate for that individual horse.
     
  4. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    :blink: What point have I missed? Spell it out for me and I will address it if you like because all I have considered I have done is merely addressed the aspects of my perspective that you have raised as being contradictory and the fact that people have somehow got offended because I consider a horses "horsenality" is actually a reflection of the person on the end of the leadrope...which is strange, because I am happy to accept that and that is actually a BIG component of Parelli's horsenality concept (kind of why they offer human personality testing in connection with horsenality)....but I am starting to think I might be the only one who has watched/listened to the WHOLE horsenality thing :unsure:
     
  5. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member


    Have you got a round yard?

    Any of the methods (horsenality = Parelli) will have something that will help but I would suggest some real life expert help would be safer in this situation with a horse that is acting aggressive.
     
  6. Warren

    Warren New Member

    The point you have missed Retro is that CTCT and LB and I are all saying that a horse's "horsenality" comes from the horse!!

    You are saying that it is a reflection of the handler but this simply cannot be the case - if it was, then all five of CTCT's horses would have her horsenality and all six (I think) of LB's would have her horsenality and all four of mine would have my horsenality. It would mean that every horse CTCT has ever handled in her life would have the same horsenality; and every horse that LB has ever handled in her life would have the same horsenality; and every horse that I have ever handled in my life would have the same horsenality! This makes no sense!!
     
  7. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    Phew just catching up on the last round of posts!

    Warren and Retro... go get a coffee some cake and some fresh air ;)

    I'm enjoying it too Wattle and I don't want it to get into a slanging match it's been really enjoyable lets keep it that way :)

    I need to go eat before I pass out*#) I shall be back!

    :))
     
  8. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    I have watched / listened to the Horsenality / Humanality concept too.

    Agreed that with any and all training no matter what it relates to consistency is the key... However... as with, for example teaching children you 'may' need to adjust your approach depending on that childs personality / learning style. IMO the same applies to horses.

    Also agree we'd like our horses to WANT to do what we ask however there are many roads to Rome ;)

    I personally don't take exception to Horsenality being a reflection of myself although I think perhaps it would be better worded as "my horses behaviour being a reflection of myself". Horsenality really is something to describe the horses innate traits. Again just like people have different personalities. Example: my sister is a rather quiet, shy person who won't put her two cents worth in even when asked unless she really, really knows the people she's with. Me on the other *#) I'm black and white, a spades a spade mate and I'll call it... don't like it that's fine you don't need too just saying what I see... two very different people.

    I most definitely agree that horses are our mirrors and when the poop hits the fan I step back and say "hang on, what's going on with me and mine" say I realise that hubby and I are a bit grouchy at each other about something and then my horses are suddenly really unapproachable if I'm being honest I can pin it back to hubby and myself and then I realise that it's not them it's me that's unapproachable. From there I can actually go back to hubby and say "sorry I've been a cow" give him a hug and open up again... voila! Horses love me again :p

    LisaJ although not wanting to 'box' this into a 'type' my LBI used to be like this (not abandoned but uncatchable and aggressive when cornered) comes down to respect and leadership. I've tried many things with her Parelli, Monty, Double Dan and back to Parelli. We had some success with Double Dan but she's too smart and just gets agro when it becomes mundane. Going back to the Parelli with an instructor has been the ticket. There are tools you can use to help but too much to write in here and I agree with Retro better with real live help than a book or DVD.

    IMO for an LBI or a horse of the above description you really need to be careful that you don't divert the aggression and end up with a horse that will near on kill you for food.
     
  9. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    Yep, me. **) I've also watched and listened to Mr P talk many times about "dealing with the horse that shows up on the day" and ADAPTING YOUR APPROACH to suit..
    Horseanality was never intended to be an excuse for either horse or rider, it is a tool like many others to allow people to pick the best approach for that horse ON THE DAY.
     
  10. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Seriously, everyone after a peroid of time should have a range of different methods to try and use for different horses.
    Horses are all different and all have had different experiances and training, and each horse will take away a different memory from the same experiance, just like a person.
    Call it what you want, and charge a fortune (PP)to sell your idea- but it is still the same basic idea.
    If one method is not working for you and your horse try another one untill you find one that fits both of you (horse and rider)
    I have found myself trying stuff that I would have thought was utter hippy rubbish- but to my suprise it worked on the new horse. MY old horse would have totally written me off if I had clicked things at her. LOL
     
  11. South Boulder Boy

    South Boulder Boy Well-known Member

    Putting my 2cents

    I don't believe in RBI, LBE stuff at all. I find wayyyy to many horses can actually be placed in all 4 of those categories.

    However I do below that of course every horse is different and they all have different personalities and respond in different ways. This can be a reflection if the handler BUT I find most the time it isn't. I mean we have literally hundreds of horses coming and going every year and a lot of them have had limited to no Human contact/interference so just how can they be reflecting us? And if that was the case why if we used the same approach all the time would we get a different reaction from each horse? You HAVE to be adaptable and flexible in the horse world, you HAVE to have many different methods and approaches under your belt, you HAVE to realize the one method won't work for all. I think any good horse person would know this and that that's good horsemanship. One method might work 99% of the time but then you're going to get that one horse that it won't work on and god help you if you go alone and try force your one method on it anyway. That's what ruins horses. Every horse is different and should be treated as an individual.

    Example, I beach train all out horses including teaching them to swim. The day a horse is taken to the beach is the day he's getting in the water and doing work. There's no time here for training over multiple days/weeks. So I have two horses horse A is clearly scared of the waves, horse B acts exactly the same but there's just something- a little hint, hard to explain but if you could see it it would know immediately, something that says he's not all that afraid and if pushed will go in. Horse A needs to be taken step by step to the water, let it touch him, he may freak but just keep pushing forward, let him see he has friends in the water. Wait for the right moment then push and hold on because his minds may change back to fear once he gets in, then he will calm look for his friends and go ok boss. Horse B needs to be told to get his bloody fat ass in that water NOW.

    Give the horse B approach to A immediately and you WILL lose your horse. Give the horse A approach to B and you're going to spend all day on the shire while he stuffs around with you.

    Not very in depth explanation as I don't have time but just to give an idea that I MUST have different approaches to suit different horses. And the end result is always the same just I've gone about getting there differently.
     
  12. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    No worries, just re-interate that I see horses on a spectrum of hot to cold blooded....you have got your hot blooded TBs all the way to your cold blooded draft type horses and everything inbetween so of course that is going to give you some difference in horse type but why can someone think they have multiple horsenalities when I see horsenality as a reflection of them and not necessarily the horse......well firstly here is the first reason why one person can have horses that are "various" horsenalities and LB explain perfectly:

    The ONLY thing you have to judge what a horse's horsenality is - is the OBSERVABLE behaviour that you witness....therefore it is YOUR subjective opinion about that behaviour. How would you guys like it if I completed your own personal personality tests to determine what personality type you had? Do you think that would be accurate or fair? Or would it be clouded with my own subjective opinion? Have you ever seen someone fall off a horse because the horse had a little spook or a minor pigroot and the riders description is that the horse wildly "bucked" them off? Have you ever seen a horse that has been described as lazy by its owner only move forward when it is being kicked constantly and has been so densensitised to kicking that it thinks constant kicking is the sign to go forward? How many "safe" beginner rider horses have been sold to another person who then announces in a weeks time the horse is a nutcase and accuses the seller of selling them a dangerous horse? There are endless examples of how inaccurate someones subjective opinion of their horses observable behaviour is! Mix into that a bad experience with the horse and the fact horses are forever reacting to what they observe in YOU and you have an extremely inaccurate process full of error.

    Second reason is related to this and the most important and what some of you have already said and I cheekily pointed out....you treat the horses differently....you just do! Humans are the great learners and problem solvers....if a horse has given you a fright, you can't help but be a bit cautious, you protect yourself, you avoid things, the horse has little wins and observes things about you and response accordingly. So it depends on how much YOU trust a particular horse, how comfortable you feel, if its resistant behaviour freaks you out or not :)

    So in a nutshell, you can think you have multiple different horsenalities but that is just your subjective opinion, what another person sees might be different :) and since all you have to judge is what you observe about the horse..... YOU and your level of comfort and trust are ultimately impacting on that behaviour. Can you have different types of horses....yes, horses do exist on a spectrum of hot to cold....is their Parelli horsenality relevant, not at all because what you see as negative behaviour should be eliminated with training and handling but if it helps YOU work with them that is perfectly fine by me because the do's and don'ts of horsenality are just principles of good horse training and relevant to any horse...so if you use them and skip the horsenality test and ponderings you will save yourself money and time over analysing and end up probably with a positive outcome anyway!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  13. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    If it helps people work with them, then it's relevant..
    Anyway - I am getting a very familiar feeling to do with walls and heads...
     
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    I like your 2 cents worth SBB, it is nice to see a discussion on stockies! :)

    See for this I would use the same approach for horse A & horse B, I would always use approach and retreat on top of a good foundation of the horse understanding to come off pressure...which is what you basically sound like you are using for horse A.....if you incorporate the water as a spot for resting after workout you will get them even more eager to go in there once they work that out (make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard :) ).
     
  15. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Yep, that is why I have said that if it works for someone it is totally cool multiple times but if you want to query me about what I have written I am totally happy to discuss that.

    Your getting a familiar feeling??....come on you obviously love it, you have even joined up under a new username, tried to have a crack at me (I am sure if I declared there was 60 seconds in a minute you would try to disagree with me LOL), brought your friends back....some of them with new names too..... so you must love it :wub: I think it is all very good fun and happy to see you all back...truly and I am not being cheeky or rude :))
     
  16. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    Uh-huh. And now I can remember why I went away... (insert passive aggressive smilie here - I think this one will suit :)*).
    RR we will have to agree to disagree. You seem unable to see that one person's path to the same end point is just as valid, even if it is different. You have repeatedly said that horseanalities are "irrelevant" and "an excuse for poor behaviour" - when called on that you then say that "you are fine with people using them" whilst continuing to say over and over why they are wrong to do so...
    I had a crack at you because your opening comment was:
    and I thought was pretty dismissive and you needed to justify the position. It's nothing personal, I assure you!
    Clearly you enjoy a fight much more than I do so you win.
     
  17. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Actually we already agreed that horsenality was a way to help people conceptualise feel :). Horsenality is irrelevant to a successful outcome....just look at Ray Hunt, Buck Branaman....well basically any horse trainer except the Parelli's....who coped quite well without the Myers-Briggs personality test adapted for horses! It can be used as an excuse......even the Parelli's get upset about this! I am not saying it is wrong or people should not do it but since it is a discussion forum and someone was looking for help looking at the problem it's fair to point out that a solution to the problem can be addressing issues with training principles and labelling the horse as a RBE/I or whatever is not really necessary because negative behaviours disappear as you establish a good foundation.....just listen to any good trainer talk about what they bother listening to when an owner with a problem horse rocks up and drops the horse off....no much.....because they start at the start of the foundation and the majority of negative behaviour is eliminated by working with the horse correctly :)
     
  18. mod 7

    mod 7 Moderator

    Rude, dismissive and flaming posts are not tolerated on this forum, this thread has been flagged to the moderators and any posts that breach the Code of Conduct will be deleted
     
  19. Caroline

    Caroline Well-known Member

    Forget the Parelli stuff girls seriously!! Not worth the argument. It is a training tool not a religion!! Just deal with what the horse presents you on any given day. There is no right or wrong. Just whatever works for the horse! :)*
     
  20. old_mate

    old_mate Well-known Member

    Ummm, I think you will find that some of the people who are saying that they use the same method with every horses, are rather good professional horse trainers.
    To them, they might be using the same methods BUT the speed and timing used will vary to suit the horse, I think that you really need to make that adjustment.
     
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