Gah! I am getting really frustrated....

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by Jemima, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. Warren

    Warren New Member

    Totally agree Little Bean!

    I think the horsenality categories referred to by Pat Parelli simplify it in order to help people understand how different horses react and need to be treated but there are in fact numerous personality types just as there are with humans and all animals.
  2. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    They are descriptions of horse behaviour that the horse has typically learnt! They are not necessarily inherent! Trust me, you take poor timing, inconsistent correction, kisses, cuddles, treats and creeping around and you can produce a pushy, spooky, easily freaked out horse! You don't have to adjust your handling of any horse...of course you have to read the horse and adjust your application of pressure but there is not some different recipe for different types of horses!
  3. Warren

    Warren New Member

    Those things you've referred to (poor timing, inconsistent correction, kisses, cuddles, treats and creeping around) will have different effects on different types of horses - that sort of behaviour will make some horses pushy and other horses spooky/easily freaked out.

    Little Bean told us that she can't treat her RBE in the same way as she treats her LBI because that would make her RBE freak out! If these two horses were not inherently different, then she could treat them both the same way without a problem.

    Of course there are standards of horse handling which apply to all horses but if you accept that horses have different personalities and you take into consideration each horse's inherent individual characteristics you will get the best out of each horse.

    We have strayed away from the OP's question so we should end the discussion on horsenality right here.
  4. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    Agree Warren we have strayed however I will just say to Retroremedy in response to her last post that the only "left brain" horse I own (I have six horses total) has been inherently confident, pushy and curious since the day she was born... and I was there when she was born.
  5. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Nothing wrong with straying away from the topic, it's the beauty of the discussion forum :) Stockies needs a bit of a discussion boost :)

    It is funny how you differentiate that a horse could be pushy or spooky if handled that way when in reality both characteristics are exactly the same thing....unfocused on the handler!

    Look, if something makes sense to someone and it helps that is cool :) but it is interesting how I can watch the whole horsenality explanation and take home a completely different message!
  6. Jemima

    Jemima Active Member

    I have no problem with my thread going astray - I am enjoying reading your discussion on this :)
  7. Warren

    Warren New Member

    OK I will just say this.

    I agree that pushy or spooky or other "bad" behaviour is the result of the handler losing the horse's focus but the way in which the lack of focus manifests itself will depend on the temperament or personality or horsenality (choose your preferred term) of the horse in question.

    Using the two horsenality types mentioned before as examples, lack of focus on the handler will result in LBI becoming pushy and RBE becoming spooky. The lack of focus is only the cause of the behaviour, it isn't the same as the behaviour.
  8. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    ^^^^ This. ^^^^ I have watched it happen. We have 2 here: one will calmly walk all over you if she does not think you are a good leader. (LBI). The other (RBI) will spook 10 times before you get out of the front gate if he suspects you are not worthy of following. When I ride, he is calm and confident, and the first horse mentioned is respectful.
  9. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    So the "spooky" horse is not "pushy"? So it never spooks into your space or rushes past that spot it doesnt want to go near and just about run over you trying to get there etc?? You see I don't really see any difference and both mean exactly the same thing and are sorted exactly the same way by establishing the same foundations.

    Considering the point of horsenality is to work towards a horse at the centre of the 4 quadrants...then how do you exactly know that the behaviour they originally are displaying is inherent and not learnt or just a reflection of your training flaws? I am not trying to be horrible saying this, watching how my own horses behaved in the past with different people was my first step in my understanding of the impact I personally had on horse behaviour :)
  10. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    OK - better example. LBI horse will, when spotting something spooky, plant her feet and refuse to go forward. Do what you like, she ain't gonna move if she does not RESPECT you. RBI horse will get the hell out of dodge when he spots the same thing. He HAS to move his feet. And he won't go past said spooky thing until he TRUSTS you. Different.
    Yes, they require a similar approach in that you need to establish leadership. But respect and trust are not the same thing, even if what you get is the same eventual outcome.
    Creep around my LBI horse and she will think "aha, I can get away with shit here". Creep around the RBI and he will end up thinking "Crikey, what the hell do we have to be scared of". Yes he will crowd you when he spooks, but he's not doing it to try and be your boss, which is what the LBI is doing when she gets into your space. He is doing it for reassurance. Yes, they both have to get OUT of my space and stand still on a loose rope, but the reward after they do that is completely different. One needs a degree of reassurance (but not too much). The other just needs to be told to get the hell over herself!
    I have 5 horses here and they all need slightly different approaches. The difference may be very subtle, so maybe SOME people wouldn't be able to pick it...
    RR, press on with your cookie cutter approach, based in the Horseanality system. I'll continue to use degrees of difference with each horse. Works for me.
  11. Deb2

    Deb2 Guest

    Works for me too CTCT.:)* A wise trainer will have many tools in his/her training bag, and keep an open mind.

    One of the beauties of horses is that they are all individuals and we can learn as much from them as what we teach them, provided we keep an open mind.

    I understand retros idea of establishing the same foundation, but never ever have I arrived at the point of having established the foundation in exactly the same way. Horses are not all the same, so how would any aspect of training be "sorted exactly the same way"? Beggars belief really????:blink:

    Keep an open mind, have your sights firmly set on the end result, but remained flexible in your approach to getting there, and enjoy the journey.;)
  12. Warren

    Warren New Member

    No Retro, my "spooky" horse is not pushy, not ever! And my "would be pushy if he could get away with it" horse is not spooky - he may shy if something takes him by surprise but after the initial reaction he returns to being calm. The "spooky" one gets totally freaked out for quite some time after getting a fright.

    They are two totally different horses and behave in totally different ways.
  13. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Great to see you back Deb2 & CTCT :))

    Yeah but does it really work for you? Like really? Just say can you get that horse that plants it feet and wont move through water if it doesn't want to go.....go through that water? Or can you make that horse that wants to move its feet...trot when all it wants to do is canter? If you can't do these things or struggle to do these things and you are still considering your horse is a right brain/left brain introvert/extravert then really are you SUCCESSFUL at using the horsenality approach or just using it as an excuse when the horse behaves in a certain way?

    I do use just one approach :)) but an approach is not a simple thing, it is a set of objectives to achieve a horse that understandings, is obedient and calm, you start at the bottom of the approach and you work your way a video game, if you don't get success at level one you keep working on that level until it is good and then move also doesnt mean you leave that level forever you have to re-visit it frequently to master it or when the environment changes (especially at competitions!)! Each horse will have certain basics of its foundation that require a bit more focus before you move on but I don't sit there going...hmmmm this horse must be a RBI/RBE or whatever, I just focus on the getting the horse understanding and calm over that aspect of the foundation however long it takes :)

    Again, I just think it is interesting...I have watched and listened to the horsenality concept but have got a completely different message from it! I just think that labelling horses as a particular personality type is personally a bit pointless and distracting in the scheme of things (but that is just ME and again if it is helpful for someone else that is cool :) )....the negative aspects of the horsenality descriptions disappear or should disappear with good handling and also don't need to have a declared horsenality to determine that a horse has more whoa than go or more go than whoa or has been spoilt, you just deal with it ';'
  14. CTCT

    CTCT New Member

    Yep, I can. In fact, when I am working them, they don't even start to plant, or spook, or run when asked to trot. Because one TRUSTS me not to get him into trouble and one RESPECTS me and knows that what I say goes. She's not worried about getting into trouble - she's an alpha mare and would be able to handle trouble by herself!
    So by that definition horseanality is working for me.
    But I can also watch both of them react in different ways to other people who ride and handle them.
    I don't use their horseanality as an "excuse", but I do allow them to show me what approach I need to use with them. And sometimes that changes from day to day. One person's use of the horseanality approach is another person's "feel" I guess.

    These 2 things appear to contradict each other.

    I happen to agree RR that you probably do by experience/instinct the same thing that others do by working their way through a series of small steps that lead them to conclude that their horse is RBI/RBE/LB something or other. That "label" then gives them a way to approach the issue of the day. This is something that horsepeople with true "feel" do instinctively, in a split second, rather than having to work through it in steps. But we all have to learn to walk before we run.

    Your initial statement that:

    was the one I had issues with. If that is true, then I must be schizophrenic or bi polar or something, as I have large degrees of difference in my paddock.
  15. Warren

    Warren New Member

    Just to clarify, I am not into Parelli methods or horsenality as such. I have always just dealt with each horse I've come across as an individual.

    For a while I only dealt with one horse and got so used to him that I initially made the mistake of dealing with a new horse the same way. This had disastrous results!

    I told someone about it and they said it was because the new one was LBI and the old one was RBE. I had never heard of horsenality before that! The conversation we had about it just made me realise that I had to treat the new horse differently, not in the way I treated the old one.

    Like CTCT both horses do as I ask, one because he respects me and one because he trusts me.

    I have not thought of my other horses in horsenality terms but I do handle them differently depending on what works for that particular horse. They are not machines and cannot all be treated the same way. Some trainers do end up with horses who behave like robots unfortunately.
  16. Little Bean

    Little Bean Well-known Member

    CTCT it sounds like you and I have the same LBI in our paddocks :lol:

    Yes it does really work for me too. As mentioned before I if treated my RBE like my LBI I'd have no hope. The RBE needs a calm, slow, steady, quiet 'don't scare me' approach whereas the LBI needs to be motivated and pepped up. Sure she's planted her feet and doesn't want to move so find something that makes her move, encourage it and take her idea make it yours then before long your idea is hers and she's in that water... At the same time help the RBE to run until they look to you for leadership and say "can I stop running now?". This doesn't mean chase it round the paddock it simply means allow them to do what they NEED and help them, you want to run? Ok, we'll run but we'll run properly. Before long running is not so much fun and they turn back and look at the scary thing to see if it's still coming to get them, when they discover it hasn't moved they go in for a closer look and I can tell you they end up in the water a hell of a lot quicker than the LBI!

    The other thing I'm not keen on is the idea of MAKING a horse... do us mere humans really think we can MAKE a half tonne prey animal do anything??? Me, I don't think so I prefer to allow them to express how they feel, process it and say "Ok got it, how can I help you get through this challenge so we can reach the goal". This could be as simple as getting on the float to go to the vet or as advanced as a 4* eventer having training blocks.

    Yup! Yup! And Yup! :D

    That would make two of us *#)
  17. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    :unsure: Just out of interest besides me who actually has watched/listened to the Parelli Horsenality concept??

    Yes,I agree CTCT it is probably feel, and Parelli has packaged it up to help people conceptualise the concept of feel :).

    No contradiction CTCT because horse handling and training is best when based on training PRINCIPLES with a set of clear objectives and therefore IS a consistent reality it all comes down to operant and classical conditioning where consistency is key :))

    LB you can't make a horse do anything and end up very successful....the aim of good horse training is for the horse to want to do what you ask.

    I don't get how you can take exception to Horsenality being a reflection of yourself.... ';' if you treat horses differently or work with them differently it is no wonder they end up with different negative behaviour...just thought I would cheekily point that out :eek:. Discovering my horses short comings are directly related to my own personal experience and skill in handling and trying to communicate with them I find a relief...because I have the ability to learn and improve and change and I don't have to sit around hoping for a miracle to happen to my horse or a pill or potion or calmer or the latest gadget is just me and I am not fazed I am not a natural horse master and enjoy the learning!
  18. Warren

    Warren New Member

    Missing the point completely!! And not being "cheeky" at all, just rude.

    We (CTCT, LB and I) are saying that if we treat all our horses the same way we get into trouble because each horse is different. By treating each horse differently we get the best out of each horse and have success with them all.
  19. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    LOL, no truly just being cheeky! :)
  20. wattle6180

    wattle6180 Gold Member

    I was enjoying the discussion until this point. Just because someone has a different perspective (accepted by them as their norm), does not make them "rude" #(

    Perhaps if a person treats all their horses as independents and comes across similar's not the horse at fault at all :p One must also bear in mind those that only have ONE horse ;)
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