EPSM Diet - Results (and other factors)

Discussion in 'Feeding Horses' started by Eoroe, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Ok I had to pop back in after it was suggested to me today to have a read of this thread. (Thanks Gaia :)

    For months Winnie has been very sore in his hind end muscles, stifle lock has become visibly worse, he now can not trot that beautiful trot he used to have. He has moderate to severe soreness through his whole under belly. Backing up was an issue to a point where he would just stand in the float eating and avoided backing out.
    So, in saying that, I gather I need to get him off oaten chaff. Do I change to wheaten or sweet chaff. Can I feed lucerne.
    He has been on vitamin E for 3 months, gets muscle mix (whey powder, brewers yeast, full fat soya and magnesium) Chamomile, crushed linsed 1/2 cup, garlic, Equimin, ACV and I have just started him on canola oil to help soften his manures. He hasn't been on Pellets for a few monhs, BUT he did have a oaten hay roll, so I am now feeding meadow (from my paddocks).
    Like Gaia, I have had xrays, ultrasounds, acupuncture, massages, chiro, vet visits x 7 in 8 mths (can you see he $$$$ flying out of my purse PMSL)
    I am going to try this diet but I won't feed copra, or speedibeet..don't know enough about them.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  2. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    First of all, I'm sorry to read about winnie's problems :(

    I'm glad Gaia mentioned this thread to you - I have almost suggested researching EPSM a few times as everything you have described was my horse too - I just started to feel as though I was suggesting it a little too often.

    My boy was scoped for ulcers - absolutely clean.

    No grain and reduced sugar/starch. Look into copra and speedibeet as they are 2 of only a few feeds that I think are safe ;) - they are the basis of my horse's feed along with oil. Lucerne is fine to feed, just watch the protein levels of a fat diet (often too high). Speedibeet is basically fibre - I use it instead of chaff and also for energy (comparable to pellets).

    It will take a few months to adapt to a fat diet, which is safe for all horses (except those with IR). My horse's colic/ulcer/skin problems cleared up within a couple of weeks of being on the diet. He has now been on the diet for almost 3 years and is still improving :)

    Vitamin E, selenium and daily exercise are all important.

    Feel free to email/ring me if you want to know more about my boy's symptoms.
  3. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Thank you SMR;)
    I just realised, that Winnies condiioned appeared and worsened after the winter here on the property, 2 acres of cape weed that he pigged out on for months and months, (high in sugar) oaten hay/chaff plus molasses...SUGAR OVERLOAD *#)
    He even fell to his knees 4 times once with me on him (causing the concussion).

    Starting the diet tomorrow. Do you soak speedibeet and how much do you feed.:))
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  4. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    You must soak Speedibeet in plenty of water (it only takes 10 minutes)... You can tell it is soaked properly when it is all soft ;) I would start off with a small amount (a handful) and build up as it can take a while to acquire a taste (once they like it, they love it ;) ).

    Yes, start the diet asap, but keep looking for other answers in case it isn't EPSM. I would get Winnie scoped now so that you know whether or not it was the diet that helped or the gastrozol (or whatever it's called :p ). It's more expense, but will be cheaper and quicker in the long run than always putting him on ulcer treatment each time he has a set back if there are no ulcers. I would also continue working with your vet to "fix" problems as they occur, but keep EPSM in the back of your mind.

    If it is EPSM (or something similar), problems will become less and less. There will be set backs, but every time I doubted whether I should be exercising him, eg he felt sore (and so backed off), his problems increased. BUT, for this reason, you need to have everything else ruled out (especially sacro problems).

    Yep, there will probably be a justified reason behind every problem (like your lameness problem), but it doesn't mean that it's the right reason. My horse had a tiny hook in his knee...we assumed this was the cause of his slight lameness and, hence, sore back. He was treated, but no difference (sometimes he felt great, other times he felt the same). He hasn't had any lameness in that leg whatsoever for almost 3 years (he can't have pentosan - he reacted as though I had fed him too much sugar...stiff and sore - he only has Technyflex). My vet once told me that he dreaded hearing my horse's name because nothing was straight forward with him.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  5. proud_equestrian

    proud_equestrian Active Member

    What do you mean by fly sensitivity? Skin allergy type thing or just HATE having flies near them?
  6. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    I'm trying wheat hay with my boy...he's getting half oat hay, and half wheat hay. He's eating it no problems. But is no better.
    Infact, over the last couple weeks, he's gone backwards if anything. I doubt it's a result of the wheat hay, as he started to go down before it was introduced. But he did a sloppy poo today and has lost condition. He's also muscle sore again.

    Winnie, i feed lucerne chaff, and have swapped my oat chaff for speedibeat.
  7. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Well he won't eat speedibeet...didn't eat any dinner tonight. I will take it out tomorrow night and see if he eats his dinner because he didn't finish his dinner 2 nights prior and there was no speedibeet in it.:(
  8. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Oh I hear you SMR, everytime I undo one thing something else or some other symptom appears. I am back to banging my head against the wall. Depending on who I see its something else wrong...I know something isn't right but I can't bloody find it.
    I WILL keep riding and keep him active, but I want my sound happy pony back.*#)
  9. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

    My horse also had all these things going on. I was at a loss. Have been feeding an EPSM esque diet for a good 6 months now and things just keep improving. I also give neutradex over the tongue before every ride and this is helping the muscle soreness no end (she even had these swelling lumps over/around her kidney area that have been there since she was broken in, almost gone!!!)

    I did have some other saddle fit issues too but the most change has come about through diet and management.
  10. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Winnie had those lumps too years ago, muscle damage though...
  11. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

    One vet told me it was muscle damage another told me kidney trouble!!! I don't know what it was just that it is going away since i have changed things :)
  12. pso

    pso Gold Member

    try using less water (and leaving the speedibeet to soak longer)...mine wont eat it unless it is almost dry (like chaff)- so he only gets the stuff off the top of the bucket- which is lighter and fluffier...
  13. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Valdez, great to hear your horse is improving! :)

    Yes, good point pso, I do the same for my "EPSM" pony...by the time his oil is in his feed, it is sloppy enough and so I use the fluffier speedibeet for him. My others will eat speedibeet any way. It does seem to take them a while to like and so keep persisting (maybe separate from his feed??) ;)

    When my horse is unwell, he always goes off his feed. I guess I do too if I feel sickly. Try to keep feeds as small as possible so that he gets as many vits etc if he only picks.

    I had forgotten, but I had my horse's kidneys scanned because he had hand sized lumps over them! They were clear (and I was told that horses rarely have kidney problems). I was concerned because my Bowen therapist at the time (my horse didn't seem to handle Bowen no matter how little was done - he felt twice as broken afterwards :( ) suggested kidneys and his urine was dark (muscle breakdown).

    Proud equestrian, I'm not too sure about Samm's horse, but mine had a skin sensitivity going on. He couldn't stand anyone going near his flanks. He was treated with all sorts, but nothing worked. It cleared up after a couple of weeks of being on the diet. I now think that part was sore muscles (even a big shot of painkiller didn't touch him :( ) Also, EPSM horses are known to randomly kick out as though there are flies around even when there's nothing there (muscle cramps?) My horse used to do this.

    Since then, he has reacted terribly to fly bites (although has improved heaps this year after having no cottons on). I am working on his omega 3:6 balance as he over-reacts to everything (mud fever/photosensitivity etc).

    I will add that there is light at the end of the tunnel for EPSM horses. You wouldn't know my horse had any problems now in terms of riding. He feels better than ever. Pso won an elementary comp on him last year against some lovely horses...and we nearly scratched him because he didn't feel so great lol. Of course, pso worked magic with him ;)
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  14. Jaana

    Jaana Well-known Member

    Holy crap, you rock SMR, I just learnt something new about EPSM, thank you.

    Heffalump had Bowan 2 weeks ago and he did not respond well to it at all - hated it in fact. And he is randomly kicking out at flies etc when there are none around.

  15. Caroline

    Caroline Well-known Member

    That is quite a normal response for many horses when they are receiving Bowen treatment. Muscle spasms and twitching can often occur during the session. Even I get them! :D **)
  16. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Lol Jaana ;)

    Caroline, the Kicking out was a separate issue to the Bowen. When he was at his worst, the first 2 sessions of Bowen really helped my horse - he could put his head to the floor! Prior to that, he was unable to eat or drink unless I raised everything to chest height :( After the third and fourth sessions, he felt so much worse again - he actually felt as though he was broken in the middle and he was 2 horses stuck together. The Bowen sessions were a week (or 2? - I can't remember now) apart...a month or 2 of treatment.

    Perhaps it was toxin overload? I'm not sure, but I daren't risk it again.

    The kicking out at flies was over about 2 years, coinciding with sore flanks/colic like symptoms.

    When you consider what EPSM is, muscle cramps (a form of tying up?) are part and parcel of the condition :(

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