EPSM Diet - Results (and other factors)

Discussion in 'Feeding Horses' started by Eoroe, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Gaia

    Gaia Gold Member

    This has been a great read! I am thinking of trying Ash on a bit of an EPSM diet as he is having terrible muscle sorness problems in behind, so I figure it can't hurt? I gave him nearly 3 months off after the Royal Show, but still had issue with muscle soreness and hoppy skippy gait, so much so, that I ended up having nearly every joint xrayed but all are clean. Didn't even think of EPSM until I read this thread today. Each time I ride, he seems to come up very sore after every ride. He has Bowne, had acupunture, but the soreness comes back. Funny someone mentioned flies because flies never bothered him and yet the last couple of months I swear they must have sharks teeth the way he carries on!
    So, he currently gets maintence pony cubes as his main energy feed, and he is a real fatty. If I drop the cubes, feed oil, vit E/sel, Thiamag? Do i need to replace the cubes for a fatty? Oak husks or something else? I don't want him to put on anymore weight. He does get oaten hay and chaff but prob only about a biscuit a day of hay as he grazes too. Any hints would be great :)
    Thanks in advance :)
  2. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Yeah. At the moment, i'm trying an Advanced product called No Tie. It's made for, as the name says, tieing up, but i decided to try this instead of stuff like dolomite or a straight cal/mag supplement as i couldn't really find something i wanted.
    They don't have it on their site, i found it at Bio John. Never even knew they made it.

    I didn't want the Thia Mag because i don't need anymore Vit B1, and that's pretty high in it. And the No Tie has selenium and E in it already.

    Since my Cell Provide is finishing soon, i'm seriously thinking of switching to Advantage, and going with the Advanced feeds proper for a few months, and see what happens.
  3. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Gaia, I almost suggested an EPSM diet last time I saw you, but decided that you had probably considered given my common refferal to EPSM lol (sorry I didn't :eek: )
    Oil will give Ash energy - I use copra to absorb it (and for it's nutritional value). I would try dropping the cubes ;)

    I use Advanced Equimin and Equivit, but find the E/Se products comparable if you look at the quantity of E and Se instead of a recommended dose. I use either Kohnke's or KER's.

    ETA: Eoroe and Cornflower, no need to thank ;) I'm just glad that your horses have improved. I also think that the more EPSM is discussed, the better for all of the horses that may be struggling - so thank you Eoroe :)
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  4. Hygain

    Hygain New Member

    I agree that this has been a well worthwhile thread with plenty of good info.

    I also reckon it has been a wake up call for our own marketing department for there has been only one brief mention of our Zero product in the entire thread.

    When we developed Zero, EPSM as well as EMS, Obesity etc etc was foremost in our minds and as this product pretty much ticks all of the boxes that people have spoken of it suggests that we have failed to fully bring this to the attention of the people who really need this feed. Truly a marketing flaw and I apologise for our failure to fully inform about this product.

    So just for good measure I can advise that analysis of Zero reveals 0% of fructans, less than 1.5% starch and less than 5.5% total nsc. It is 35% crude fibre and has the benefits of 5mg/kg of biotin, 500iu/kg of Vitamin E, 0.75mg/kg of bio available selenium and 5,000mg/kg of Bio-Mos.

    I am pleased to say that we are now selling this in both hemispheres and it now has solid support of a number of non Hygain nutritionists and vets. Most importantly we have had some solid feedback on horses with some of the issues mentioned though of course it can never solve every issue.

    Premixed feeds aren't the be all and end all but this is clearly one product that responds to the very specific needs of horses suffering from some debilitating issues.

    A couple of notes of warning though. Palatability has improved but remember it has very, very little sugar and basically no starch so its like taking kids off macca's and whacking them on brussells sprouts. Also, it does (in the majority of cases) keep horses pretty docile AND don't expect it to promote great condition. It is low in energy so not good if you want full performance.

    Just food for thought and certainly food for thought for our marketing dept!!
  5. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Yes, Hygain, Zero is a great product for EPSM horses :) (with oil added to the feed).

    I think it has been investigated, but is there any possibility of producing a feed suitable for EPSM performance horses as this is going to be the biggest group of "known" EPSM horse IMO (EPSM often only shows enough symptoms to be an issue when the horse is asked for more work).

    KER have a feed in the US (Re-leve?) that is suitable, but there is nothing available here (except Zero which is too low in energy for me to consider). I am more than happy to work with you if any of my experience is if use. My main issue is the length of time taken to prepare my boy's feeds - mainly all of the supplements - oil is always going to be needed to be added.
  6. Jaana

    Jaana Well-known Member

    Too add to my experiences with EPSM, my agistment owner prefers that we don't supply our own hay to prevent weed growth on his property. So he provides all hay the problem is that it is oaten. It is older, poorer quality oaten hay and in the 3 weeks that Tally has been on it I have noticed a definate change in him; he is flagging and finding it extremely difficult to pick up the left canter lead, when previously this wasn't an issue. So back to wheaten hay and I will be chatting to my agistment owner to make sure I can provide my own.
  7. Hygain

    Hygain New Member

    Yep, good point SMR and as stated this is definitely a flaw with Zero - probably because we have aimed it at a range of issues including Cushings and Obesity etc where the performance aspect is secondary to overall welfare.

    Oil is definitely a must if you want to perform on Zero and you could probably add some other energy sources such as lupins. The other option is using Ice which although not as low in starch (14%) is still a lot lower than most other products including the curiously named Low G.I pellet which is approx 20% starch. It certainly is a challenging issue. Achieve performance but without the ingredients that we have traditionally used as a performance energy source.
  8. Gaia

    Gaia Gold Member

    Thanks SMR! I really think he would be very borderline, so the diet changes are def not going to hurt. The other spot that I discovered he was very sore in last time I did a Bowen was his stomach!
  9. Mater

    Mater Well-known Member

    I have an extremely overweight pony who I've just started on Zero. I suspect he may have something like EMS, and our oaten hay is too good for him which I why I investigated other feeds.
    I am also using it for my filly who had surgery to help rectify a club foot. The vet told me to wean her, and to not feed her too much good feed. So she has Zero with her chaff.

    So far, the obese pony is still obese but I feel better that I can actually feed him now. I was worried that he wasn't having his nutritional needs met before when he was only on a scant handful of hay a day. Now he has Zero I'm happier that he's not missing out.
  10. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Hit the nail on the head. It's going to take a lot of education. Even though the info may be out there, it simply isn't getting to the general population.
    By that i mean, you have to go looking for it. Lots of people and stockfeeders and even vets still suggest good old pony cubes and bran and pollard. Oh, and no oats.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  11. Sallie

    Sallie Well-known Member

    Janna my mare can not have oaten hay/chaff she has to have Weaten hay / chaff only infact thats all she gets is hay/chaff , speedibeat and Vit E and is perfect on this diet
  12. Jaana

    Jaana Well-known Member

    Tally's been on wheaten for the past 18 months or so; I was hoping he would be ok on the oaten. Nope, now to talk to the agistment owner and tell him I have to provide my own hay.
  13. Maree4

    Maree4 Gold Member

    Thank you for sharing such detailed information Eoroe, I have found it very very interesting. I am so pleased that you are getting results, and reading your post has given me a lot more info for my own personal battle with an issue with my boy. It's also reinforced things I am already doing. **):)
  14. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

    My horse also has an EPSM esk diet. Lucerne, copra, lupins, sunflower seeds, oil and her e-se and general vit supplement. She does have oaten hay (no choice with agistment) and copes but she does do better on wheaten. She has done so much better on this since the change over 6 months ago. She has a subclinical tie up problem but i thought it was more than that, hence the change and all for the better!!!
  15. IbanezGirl

    IbanezGirl Well-known Member

    ive just read this entire thread, my eyes hurt now.

    for the past month i have be racking my brain trying to figure out what is going on with my boy and my wallet is defiantly lighter. it's made me feel a little helpless. but after reading this i believe my boy has EPSM. he doesn?t have all symptom but he does have a few of them.

    he's been in "rehab" this week with just lots of gentle walking everyday, as he does not move in his yard and will stand in the same spot all day. today i lunged him and asked for the trot(where its most evident that?s something up in the back end) and there was a massive improvement....but still not 100%.

    his smptoms are

    back end weakness
    muscle loss along the back and hind
    Hugely agitated with flys and he attracts them.
    constant stamping and tail swishing even when coated in flyspray.
    problems backing up
    lifting of back legs(maybe a second or 2) when ridden. my friend managed to snap a photo of him doing it yesterday
    reluctant to pick feet up
    lack of energy

    the only real "bad" food in his diet at the moment is sweetmax which i got a week ago, so defiantly off that now after reading this. but is FFS still ok?

    this thread had been a massive eye opener thats for sure.
  16. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    FFS is OK. Starch / carbohydrates are the enemy and don't forget to add oil to the diet (if you don't already :) ).

    Good luck.
  17. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Can i ask what the different between oat and wheat hay is with regards to EPSM? They're both grains, so i would have thought both are bad. And wheat, as far as i know, if not as well digested as oats.
    Does anyone know the science behind it? Would it be regarded as better for all EPSM horses that can't have meadow?
  18. Sallie

    Sallie Well-known Member

    I Cornflower not sure the difference of oat / wheaten but as i mentioned to you a few months back I cant feed my mare Oaten hay or chaff or meadow but my mare is perfect with wheaten. Seems like I am not the only one who has the same results
  19. Blackbat

    Blackbat Well-known Member

    This has been interesting. Many pieces falling into place here too. In regards to oaten or wheaten hay - could it be that oat crops are cut for hay with the grain intact and early in the season so it's nice and green and full of sugars and starches? And that wheaten hay is mostly the straw that is cut as a byproduct after wheat grain harvest, so it's got minimal grain and emptier of sugars at the end of it's life cycle? Just guessing.
  20. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Sallie, yeah i know. I'm just wondering why it may be. I've never tried my horse on wheat hay, because i always remember everyone saying wheat is less digestible than oats.
    It might be worth a try. Couldn't really hurt.

    Blackbat, maybe. But is wheat that is intended for feed still done that way? Because i've seen wheat chaff and there's seeds all through it.
    Also, if you look through the Quokka, there's adds for oat and wheat chaff from the same number (same property?), so one would assume it's all grown for feed.

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