EPSM Diet - Results (and other factors)

Discussion in 'Feeding Horses' started by Eoroe, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Eoroe, i feel the same way on a lot of things. Yeah, if you can get the oat husks locally and cheap, great option for you **)

    Thanks :) Do you know the recommended feeding rates? Do you soak yours?
     
  2. Coda Cowgirl

    Coda Cowgirl Well-known Member

    I feed maxisoy as well...Its a great product! economical, easy and my horses do really well on it. It is also great for the pony that doesn't like to drink much! i can make it really sloppy so she gets an extra half bucket of water. I found i only needed to feed about a kg a day (along with half to one kg lupins and a cup of canola meal) to keep my girl in great condition and i also found it was putting weight on my other horse that needed condition. Thoroughly reccomended.
     
  3. justanothergirl

    justanothergirl Well-known Member

    I used to feed it dry (as originally stated on the bag) but one of mine would pick through the feed leaving the Maxisoy in the bin. I now add water and mix it up into a bit of a slop adding in canola meal, lupins, canola oil and vitamins and minerals -they lick the bins clean.

    I have one who is really hard work to keep the weight on and this seems to be the best out of all the myriad of feeds I've tried in the past. **)

    The feeding guide is listed here http://www.energreennutrition.com.au/images/stories/BROCHURE Maxisoy (2).pdf
     
  4. Ponies4Me

    Ponies4Me Well-known Member

    Re the Maxisoy, have had feedback of owners feeding it dry - horses suffering with choke episodes.

    Better to be safe, than sorry - soak it. Only takes 5 mins.

    Costs about $21 a bag around SE qld, with speedibeet around $40 - 48 a bag.

    Of course my Diva pony won't eat the cheaper option will she :}
     
  5. Nightsky

    Nightsky Guest

    I was just wondering about Copra and Livamol in general, would they be ok for a horse on this diet ?

    I allways thought that oaten hay wasn't part of ESPM horse diet though ??

    Pasture can be high in sugars too, especially early in the morning.
     
  6. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Just a bit more info on the topic....which could be useful :)

     
  7. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    So - all in all....depending on the severity of the response - or the EPSM present in the animal, depends on the severity of the diet needed **)

    Basically - If it wont kill them - It wont kill them - lol **)

    She describes it quite well without all the bio-chemistry..... :))
     
  8. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    Strictly speaking oaten hay / chaff is not recommended for EPSM horses as it can be quite high in sugar. However, it does vary from batch to batch, different suppliers etc. depending on when it was cut which can vary the sugar levels quite dramatically. Everytime you get a new batch of oaten hay it is good to make sure you have some of the previous batch so you can introduce the new batch gradually and make sure it is not going to cause the horse any problems. Also, many horses may be borderline (ESPM is used quite broadly to describe a variety of muscle symptoms) and can handle some sugar in their diet (in the form of forage/hay/chaff), but still benefit from a high fat (no grain) diet. The oaten hay can also be soaked to reduce the sugars if you get a batch that seems to affect your horse more than a previous batch.

    Copra should be OK as it is low in starch / sugars (around 11% from memory?). I reckon Maxisoy pellets (Soybean hulls) are a great fibre source for "EPSM" horses as they are VERY low in NSC and cheaper than speedibeet. Not sure about livamol, think it might have molasses (?) so probably not a good idea.

    My horse has muscle issues (tying up, hind end stiffness) and I feed him a relatively low sugar / no grain diet (he does get oaten hay / chaff) with a VitE/Se supplement and oil. He seems to be going well - an 8 for one of my extended trots on the weekend, so very happy :)
     
  9. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Thanks :)) Doesn't say (or i missed it) how big the bag is? And i assume the weights they give are dry weights?

    I pay $38 for a bag of speedibeet, so that's not bad. It's working out slightly more expensive than chaff. I'm only feeding 1 horse.

    Eoroe - good info. Now have to convert all that!
     
  10. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    First of all...yay...I'm glad to hear your horse is much better Eoroe :)

    As for what is safe, I agree with what Double Helix has said - there must be so many borderline horses that improve with a form of the EPSM diet. EPSM is a very specific condition, but I am convinced that there are many grades of it and that there must be other similar conditions that have not yet been accounted for.

    I won't feed any grain bi-product as there are alternatives that my horse is happy to eat. I also think that my horse is at the severe end of the scale. I do, however, allow him to have grass, but monitor him carefully.

    I think it is important to feed within your means and monitor your horse. I am keen to try Maxisoy, but, atm, my horse is going well and so I am reluctant to change anything in his diet. I feed copra, speedibeet, ffs and of course oil (and supplements). I add lupins when more energy is needed.

    My horse cannot have Pentosan (which I later read is a semi-synthetic polyssacharide :eek: ) - he quickly deteriorated when I gave him the injections. Everything that my horse has, has to be carefully checked and monitored.

    Samm, my horse was also very sensitive to flies and greatly improved with the diet :)

    Yay for Eoroe's horse :)
     
  11. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Thanks SMR :)) .....now to stop the doofus from getting stung by bee's daily lately and we are ALLLL good - lol....


    Another thing to note - is that Synthetic Mycotoxin Binders, are also a long - and potentially dangerous Polyccacharide chain to horses with EPSM issues......

    The behaviour outlined in potential Mycotoxin Toxcicity can show similarily to EPSM symptoms.

    I actually considered the whole mycotoxin point with him for a while - and considered trying the Binders, but didnt find enough locally appropriate evidence, or documentation to satisfy me, and push me into spending the dollars.....In the end however reverted to the age old agricultural technique of feeding small and controlled amounts of Bentonite as a mycotoxin binder - where potential problems could be present.

    hrmm... slightly off topic, but relavent....and really a totally different thread - lol :p.....

    The reason I said - YES to the Bentonite, was the incidence of the horses that were paddocked together over roaming area or approx 30 acres, with AMPLE and great quality feed, and socialisation taking to grating of and eating the gravel from the damm walls where the dusting of benonite was present. We had used it in the damms to clear them and found this reaction.

    I added it to the diet - and have found no side effects.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  12. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    SMR, i really should be thanking you too (and everyone else who suggested it), because if it wasn't for you, i wouldn't have tried it with my horse. So thank you very much!!! :)

    And yes, i do agree that there may be varying degrees of it, because my horse is doing fine on oaten hay. I really do want to find some good meadow, and try him on it, and see what happens.

    Eoroe - that's really interesing about the micotoxin binders. The ingredients in all of them say cell wall extract. Where does the Polyccacharide chain come it? I'm asking genuinely, out of interest, not being difficult or anything :)
    I have tried one called Tox Defy, and there was no change whatsoever. I continued feeding it (may as well, i bought the thing) until it's finished a while ago, and again, no change.

    Where do you get the bentonite from? Have you seen a difference?
     
  13. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    Plant cell walls are made up of carbohydrates: cellulose (long polymer chains of glucose), hemicellulose (a polysacchride composed of a variety of sugars), and pectin (another complex polysacchride), as well as proteins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  14. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    Oh! :} Thanks DH :)) You learn something new every day.
     
  15. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    :)

    Bentonite is a clay product - you can purchase feed grade bentonite a Elders, Landmark ect...... approx 25 for 25 kgs.
    It is fed to cattle, sheep ect commonly. Their is the theory that it could possibly prevent absorbtion of other Vits and minerals....I havent had any problems.... ';'

    I didnt actually notice a difference in Ty, but I did in the Holsteiner X TB, Eddie. He stopped paddock pacing/galloping, random sweating, CONSTANT erratic behaviour, he was no longer constantly itchy or frantic in demenour around spring time, spooking and stiffness.

    BUT....who knows what it could have been...it could have a number of factors. It wasnt an immediate resonse either...it took a month or so. But he is on it all the time, and no longer goes nutso over spring time. He took being 'sprung' in spring to a new level.....he was a basket case.

    Isnt anymore **)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  16. Nightsky

    Nightsky Guest

    Yes, RGT and mycotoxin tox. has similar symptoms to EPSM and given that there is a drought this year no pasture is good quality and even if so .... I would be restricting Kikuyu intake in any EPSM horse.

    You can also add a handfull of dolomite in their nightfeed after they have been on grass. Kikuyu etc grasses are often causing a calcium deficiency and they need extra to make up for it.

    Gotcha Equine has really good information about this.
     
  17. Nightsky

    Nightsky Guest

    Just adding ...

    I also find the Advanced feed Vit E and Selenium very good, also Equimin and Thiamag ( for xtra magnesium ).They are locally made and recommended by my vet so I use them. Stockfeeders often recommend the more expensive products, so just wanted to say that Advanced Feed stuffs are good.

    Another thing, magnesium supplements are really good for any horse with ANY health issues !! And human too ..
     
  18. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    ....no worries for me with Kikuya......the only stuff we have on the property is growing on the 10 square metres of lawn :p...and the buggers arnt getting anywhere that - lol *#) ...in fact - you cant find much Kike pasturei nthe wheatbelt...

    **)

    Dont be fooled by a year that is not great seasonally, or not what we are seasonally expecting......Here - We had outstanding weed crops :p of geranium, capeweed, and repeated - however short lived pasture growth containing lucerne, ryegrass and clover. This was due to the numerous frosts, and the lack of rainfall, all be it heavy, followed by spring like weather when it occured. Most of these contained very high levels of tricky to control and ration sugars. Capeweed when stressed, or post frost, produces very high levels of sugars, even though normally it is quite good feed value.

    Weeds are very resiliant - I found an off season more confronting that a normal season, due to the higher levels of 'bang for buck' compared to normal - and the nbeed for much much more roughage than I wanted them to be getting from the pasture they had acsess to at the time.......different in the coastal plains of course :))

    And yes..I took into account the nitrites which have the potential to limit magnesium uptake - and provided higher than normal levels of magnesium in the diet **)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  19. Nightsky

    Nightsky Guest

    Thats exactly what Im talking about - poor year, everything that grows is very high in sugars and toxings and lots of weeds !!
     
  20. Eoroe

    Eoroe Gold Member

    Righto. I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say...... :}
     

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