Educate me on all things Pinto (mostly tobiano)....

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by KPF, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. KPF

    KPF Well-known Member

    Hi,

    I'm interested to learn a bit more about these tobiano beauties, the coat patterns etc, and instead of continueing to Hijack another thread, I thought I better start a new one....

    So with Pinto's is it desirable in competition that the horse with the most even markings of colour and white space should place highest? This is what a breeder would aim for when breeding? One that is evenly marked rather than one which has more white, or more dark colour?? This is less favourable??

    What about Blue eye/s?? Are these a favourable trait to have? So if you have a pinto with a blue eye, you are likely to place higher/valued higher?

    Also with the Blue eye/s, is this a trait that inherently comes from say your western breed horses, and then passed down through generations?

    Or is it possible through all types of pinto breeds and something in the pinto genetic?



    What about the coat pattern, some of the Tobiano's I see have in some places of there patches what appears to look like a smeared/smudged/unclear outline....is this a less favourable trait and a solid (like ink texta marker) border around patches is more preferrable?

    Stripey hooves are in, and stripey tails also good? And patchey genetalia?

    Can any breed of horse be registered Pinto so long as it paperwork can prove it's from patchy parentage?

    Be kind, I'm learning!:)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  2. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    Ok KPF, since no-one has posted I will try to answer some of your questions! I am not a pinto enthusiast myself, altho I own 3 of them. I have learnt enough with them tho to get an idea of it. BTW I am not a member of ANY colour societies.

    "So with Pinto's is it desirable in competition that the horse with the most even markings of colour and white space should place highest? This is what a breeder would aim for when breeding? One that is evenly marked rather than one which has more white, or more dark colour?? This is less favourable??" Members of colour societies would be able to answer this in more detail, but I believe they like a 50/50 coat pattern, and there are characteristics that they look for in their "best marked" classes. But in general classes I think markings are only taken into account when all else is equal (like when they say scars will only go against you when trying to pick a winner between 2 even horses..)

    "What about Blue eye/s?? Are these a favourable trait to have? So if you have a pinto with a blue eye, you are likely to place higher/valued higher?" I think alot of it comes down to judges personal preference... not too sure.

    "Also with the Blue eye/s, is this a trait that inherently comes from say your western breed horses, and then passed down through generations?" Blue eyes are a part of the broken colour coat Patterns, generally NOT part of Tobiano, is common in Overo's and Sabinos. It isnt specific to western breeds, but as many Paints & Paint Bred horses have Overo genetics it seems that way. You will notice alot of broken coloured miniatures and other breeds also have blue eyes.

    What about the coat pattern, some of the Tobiano's I see have in some places of there patches what appears to look like a smeared/smudged/unclear outline....is this a less favourable trait and a solid (like ink texta marker) border around patches is more preferrable? Not my area of expertise, but I think that the bigger the smudgey line the better...

    Stripey hooves are in, and stripey tails also good? And patchey genetalia? From what I have learnt, all of the above are sought after traits.


    Can any breed of horse be registered Pinto so long as it paperwork can prove it's from patchy parentage? The stud book is still open, therefore ALL breeds are eligible providing they meet the colour criteria. I think there are some exclusions (Clydesdales?) but best to ask the society your looking at joining :)




    Good luck with your patchy education! It can get tricky, especially when they start combining 2 dif coat patterns together and giving them a new name (eg. Tobiano x Overo = Tovero) it gets a little complicated!
     
  3. KPF

    KPF Well-known Member

    :)Hi Sassy,

    thanks so much for the feeedback. I thought I'd been very patient and then thought, Ummm...this subforum is like a ghost town, maybe no-one visits here and I need to put it somewhere else.:p

    I am not a member but just interested to learn a bit more about the Pinto breed standards.
     
  4. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    LOL You were very patient, I thought all the Pinto breeders would jump in so I didnt reply right away and just noticed you hadnt had any!

    Breeding with coloured horses is very hit & miss with what you will get tho! I have a Tobiano stallion (mini) who has been to 5 broken coloured mares, and had only 3 broken coloured foals! (he will serve his first NON broken coloured mare this year LOL)
    his most recent foal was out of the loudest coloured mare yet, and we got a solid baby!

    Dad:
    [​IMG]
    Mum & Baby:
    [​IMG]
     
  5. ArabAtHeart

    ArabAtHeart Well-known Member

    I love pintos, so have looked a bit into them.

    In colour classes, the 50/50 dark/white coat is desireable, and in pinto characteristics classes you want the following:

    50/50 coat
    Striped feet
    Multicolour genitals
    Two-toned mane and tail
    White on face
    White on bottom lip
    Blue eyes
    And I thought that the colours were meant to be sharp and clear, but I may be wrong. The pinto society says blue zone/shadowing is desirable, but I don't know that that means!

    The blue eye comes with the splash gene. I think there is also debate on whether the frame gene causes it as well, not sure on that one. Sabino doesn't cause blue eyes, but it can change the splash characteristics to make it look like it's just sabino.

    With registration, I'm not really sure. I was told by someone that pinto's needed at least a dinner plate's worth of white to be able to be registered, and legs don't count, but I don't know how true that is...
     
  6. Gamblin Paint Bred

    Gamblin Paint Bred Well-known Member

    The Splash gene is part of the Overo "family" when the eye is blue the Splash gene lost the fight with the Frame Overo gene as to who was going to be external (coat) or internal (eye).

    Please research your Tobianos bloodlines as a handful of Tobianos have Overo parentage so can be carriers of the OLW Gene and if they do get the test done personally I would test regardless saves so much sadness.
    You may be surprised to know that the OLW gene is NOT breed specific if you have a horse or pony that exhibits the Frame Overo pattern it may carry the OLW gene or if they are solid but one or both parents are Overo.

    KPF you may be interested to know that both QH and TBs have been know to "Crop Out" which means that two Solid coloured horses produce a coloured offspring which usually exhibits the Frame Overo pattern hence why I tested all my TB broodies for the OLWS Gene.

    Sorry I have sorta run off the rails a bit as you are really interested in the Tobiano coat pattern but I just thought you may be interested in some of the other coat patterns oh and I breed Paints and have some mini Pintos as well so I better join the Pintos soon hey lol funny my Paints are Overos and my minis are Tobiano :p
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2010
  7. KPF

    KPF Well-known Member

    I found that really interesting, so it seems it does not matter what pattern a horse exhibits so long as they have that 'broken colour' ? gene then they can potentially produce any variation of coat pattern - so there is no dominance as to whether a certain horse will produce mostly maximum/50/50/or minimum colour patterns, or any at all (unless homogenous sp?)

    Makes it super hard to make so called calcualted breedings I guess to produce a pinto horse for the competition arena based on trying to produce the desirable characteristics that the society are looking for...or is there a science behind it and you test for genes which produce max/min colour patterns?
     
  8. KPF

    KPF Well-known Member

    This is what I was trying to explain (not very well), I've just grabbed a pic from web to show, but see how the pattern along neck has a very clear 'marked' outline (is this what they call "blue zone"??) but further back along the girth the outline has sort of a smudged look and not so clear....i think I've seen it referred to as "mould" once before. So would this be undesirable?


    [​IMG]


    GPB is OLW the blue eye gene?? So your saying that TB's can also be carriers of this OLW and pinto gene, and therefore it is possible that even a Warmblood could be born with Blue eye because of the infusion of the TB into their hirstory??

    I am still a little confused about the whole blue eye thing and patterns when you talk about say the overo compared to the Tobiano, so if blue eye is a desired trait, and you have a well marked tobiano and a well marked Overo in a class together and the overo has the blue eye/s and all other things are equal, does this mean that the overo should place higher everytime because it has the blue eye - even though the blue eye is not neccessarily a genetic make up of the Tobiano coat pattern?? which leads to my next question - do thye always judge the various coat patterns together or do they compete like against like ie - Tobiano's together, and Overo's together etc???

    Am finding this quite interesting!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  9. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    Hey KPF!

    Ok my knowledge here is a little bit limited but I will try explain what I do know!

    UNLESS you have a HOMOZYGOUS pinto, the chances of your pinto producing a pinto foal is 50/50.
    As for how much white it will have, it is not defined.
    However.... Tobiano x Tobiano or Tobiano x Solid will only produce solid or Tobiano (you wont get an Overo unless the Tobiano horse is not a true Tobiano and has Overo breeding).

    I dont know if it is the same with overo x overo...

    Now... None of my pinto's are homozygous.
    of the 5 mares my stallion has produced foals to here are the results:

    Tobiano x Tobiano = Solid
    Tobiano x Tobiano = Tobiano (evenly marked)
    Tobiano x Tovero = Tovero (died at birth but I think he was mostly white like his Dam)
    Tobiano x Tobiano = Tobiano (more colour than white)
    Tobiano x Tovero = Solid

    FYI - both "Tovero" mares are closer to being medicine hats, but technically have too much colour off of their face to qualify LOL (told you it gets complicated :p)
     
  10. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    OLWS or LWO (Overo Lethal White Syndrome, or aka Lethal White Overo) is, obviously, an overo gene. Altho, as GPB mentioned, some non-overo appearing horses can carry the gene - this means they are genetically overo but do not outardly show the colour pattern (blue eyes is often an indication but not a rule).

    You need two Positive LWO (LWO+) horses to produce a lethal white foal - this is like needing 2 dilutes to produce a double dilute.
    All LWO++ foals die due to bowel complications and are white in body colour (google for detailed info LOL)
    - If you know your horse is LWO+ you should not breed it to ANY coloured horses without them being tested LWO- (negative) first.

    All colour patterns compete together in the same class. The blue eye's being desirable may be an indication as to why Overo's are popular despite Tobiano's tending to be more common. (Personally I dont like blue eyes and much prefer a Tobiano over an Overo!)


    Oh, and from my understanding the "blue zone" - being the fuzzy section between colour & white - is desirable. However I cant see the photo you posted to confirm if what you have posted is desirable or not lol
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  11. Gamblin Paint Bred

    Gamblin Paint Bred Well-known Member

    I am glad you are finding this interesting it isn't often I get a chance to share what limited knowledge of Colour Patterns I have but I find colour genetics so interesting and have read so much stuff it is just amazing how things work but as Sassy said it can get very complicated lol :p

    The OLW gene is what makes the Frame Overo pattern called Frame as the colour "frames" the horse I use a little saying I learnt many many years ago which makes it easier to identify patterns easily.
    Overo = looks like someone threw a can of white paint at the horse from underneath
    Tobiano = looks like someone threw a can of white paint at the horse from above.

    The blue eye gene or marking is cause by another type of pattern called the Splash Gene (which they have collectively included in the Overo Family) and as I said before alot of Overo horses carry both Frame and Splash genes and well like siblings they don't always agree on where they will sit so to speak lol like when kids call shot gun in the car the same applies the Frame says I am making a big baldy face marking and well Splash says no you aint and well there is a struggle if Frame wins big baldy face with Blue eye if Splash wins baldy face and no blue eye
    Example
    This is my Stallion Bobby he is Overo bred (he is a solid who carries the Overo Gene) but you can see he has a blue eye which indicates he is carrying the Splash gene also (he also exhibits some Sabino markings but that is a whole other pattern lol)
    Showing Blue eye
    [​IMG]

    Showing width of Baldy face
    [​IMG]

    This is my Colt Rebel the Spalsh gene has shown external on his face by covering the eye area with white and no blue eye [​IMG]
    Showing extent of Face marking on near side
    [​IMG]


    The Coloured Warmbloods - I am not very familiar with their bloodlines or breeding so can only assume that the TB breeding may have bought the coloured gene in to the mix so to speak but I am sure you may find way back before time began that there may have been heavy horse bloodlines which may have included the Clydesdales and maybe Cob which do carry coloured genes but as I said I am only guessing and I am sure there would be some lovely Warmblood people that know a bit more about it than me
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  12. mysticmoondancer04

    mysticmoondancer04 Well-known Member

    So with Pinto's is it desirable in competition that the horse with the most even markings of colour and white space should place highest? This is what a breeder would aim for when breeding? One that is evenly marked rather than one which has more white, or more dark colour?? This is less favourable??
    Evenly marked should only come into it if all things are equal (ie conformation and movement) colour should be the last thing judged and should not place over a horse with better conformation/movement
    Even coloured horses are judged as such in Best Marked classes

    What about Blue eye/s?? Are these a favourable trait to have? So if you have a pinto with a blue eye, you are likely to place higher/valued higher?
    This is a favourable trait but you are not necessarily going to place higher because of it. It would some into consideration in your Best Characteristics classes

    Also with the Blue eye/s, is this a trait that inherently comes from say your western breed horses, and then passed down through generations?As Latika said :)

    Or is it possible through all types of pinto breeds and something in the pinto genetic?
    Again as Latika said :)

    What about the coat pattern, some of the Tobiano's I see have in some places of there patches what appears to look like a smeared/smudged/unclear outline....is this a less favourable trait and a solid (like ink texta marker) border around patches is more preferrable?
    Again as Latika said (she pretty has it covered lol)

    Stripey hooves are in, and stripey tails also good? And patchey genetalia?
    Yep but again only in your Best characteristics classes

    Can any breed of horse be registered Pinto so long as it paperwork can prove it's from patchy parentage?
    Doesnt only have to be from patchy parentage. I think just about any horse thats born patchy (even from breed unregistered parents) can be reg'd pinto. Like Latika said (again LOL) I dont think Clysdales are accepted but not sure on other breeds.

    Best place to look it up is on the Pinto WA website, they have the criteria on there and its very informative :) Think they also have the way they are judged somewhere on there too
     
  13. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    :D Least I know I havent got it all wrong!!!
     
  14. PINTO1980

    PINTO1980 Gold Member

    We do accept the Heavy Horse Breeds now just not alot of them are actually pintos..

    The shadowing you are talking about is the Blue Zone.ALL pintos/Paints have it.And is counted as a characteristic when u are in this class.Some pintos/paints will show it more than others.

    The pinto is a Pattern association so as long as the horse/pony has the required amount of White it will be accepted.This does not include white on the legs,under belly,face markings.

    When you are being judged in your age class it is ment to be 40% conformation,40% movement & 20% workout.

    Your pattern should only be judged in the Best Marked Classes which is then 50/50 of white & colour.
     
  15. KPF

    KPF Well-known Member

    I am now wondering how do you judge a Pinto's movement/conformation??? Being said that if any horse born patchy (used loosely terminology) can be rego'd Pinto, the horse could be of a western/Heavy/sport/race heritage etc then all I can think is it must be bloody hard to judge conformation and movement because the actual 'breed' of the horse would vary sod ramatically and therefore the conformation and movement could be at opposite ends of the spectrum as desirable to the 'breed' and not the 'pinto' reg. Ie - a horse that lopes v's a horse the trots uphill and collected for example, true to their breed perhaps individually....but to a Pinto registration?? I reckon that'd be an extremely hard class to judge, would you expect the judge of such a class to be profficient and knowledgeable across all predominant breeds that may fall under the Pinto banner?

    Super interesting.:))

    (sorry not much time to chat, but I'm sure I have heaps of q's still, but really enjoying reading this over a couple times!)
     
  16. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    The sizes & types do vary dramatically, so yes, alot of the judging would have to come down to the particular judges personal preference on 'type'.

    They do split the classes into different heights tho in most cases (so the mini's & shetty's arent up against your coloured WBs & Paints!)

    Judging movement/conformation in a class with no specific Breed would be just like judging any Open class, or any SOS line-up. Not always easy, but not unheard of.
    It is the same with your Dilute classes as well, they are of all types & sizes and have one thing in common - their coat colour!
     
  17. ArabAtHeart

    ArabAtHeart Well-known Member

    GPB, you say that frame and splash have a fight, and the winner decides what happens... but our colt is tobiano with a blue eye. So splash is there. But frame is not. There's absoloutly no frame in any of his family tree, it's not even a possibility. So how does that work?
     
  18. Gamblin Paint Bred

    Gamblin Paint Bred Well-known Member

    Hi AAH I think you will find that the frame overo gene is somewhere in the bloodline and has maybe never shown itself outwardly (as in the frame overo pattern not applying itself to the coat) The PHAA are incouraging people to also test their Tobianos for the OWLS as it is possible for them to carry it even though they appear outwardly Tobiano (the Tobiano is masking the Frame overo ie the Tobiano won the fight so to speak) your boys blue eye is probably a residual effect from a battle fought long ago.
    It is actually possible for an Overo horse to carry all three Overo Pattern types ie the Frame Overo, the Splash Gene and the Sabino gene so it is not unreasonable to think that some Tobiano Patterned horse could also carry all four coat pattern genes or a mix of some of them.
    Some Tobianos can exhibit both the Tobi and Overo patterns this is called a Tovero and maybe there is one of them in your boys bloodlines that has been wrongly named.
    There are TBs and QHs that have no known coloured breeding yet they crop out and produce a coloured baby, there is a TB horse racing atm called Apache Cat and he is a crop out there are actually alot more crop out TBs than we are aware of as they are not announced so to speak, it just seems impossible that it could happen but it does so somewhere in the bloodlines two seemingly "normal" coloured horses are bred and the combination of the genes may mutate causing the crop out. My knowledge is quite limited so some of the "but why" questions are way outta my league lol I hope this helps a bit as too why your boy has a blue eye but as I said my knowledge is limited.
    Maybe you could put up some photos of some of his relatives if you have them and I would lean more to the Sires side than the Dams as you never know we might be able to see if there was a Tovero lurking in his history :p
     
  19. Kate O

    Kate O New Member


    Hi AAH,
    your tobi can have a blue eye without frame being there, it just means that the splash gene is causing it. I think the 'fight' between genes that GPB is referring to is more so to do with sabino and splash. Sabino doesn't want white over the eye, whereas splash does - which often gives a big curve of white around the eye, as shown on Gamblin's 4th photo.

    Lovely horses, Gamblin!
     
  20. ArabAtHeart

    ArabAtHeart Well-known Member

    That's what I thought! Gamblins description of frame vs splash just confused me! :}

    This is my baby...
    [​IMG]
     

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