Coloured Thoroughbreds - How?????

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by simbin, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. Kintara

    Kintara Well-known Member

    Probably couldn't register him as a paint, but could probably register him as a pinto depending on how extensive the white is?
     
  2. Westausgrl

    Westausgrl Well-known Member

    Hi All, just thought I would throw a question in here if I may. I have a 15/16 yr old t/b, I got him about 12 yrs ago straight of the Track. He is a chestnut, but he also has white spots on his rump and patches that look like dirty smudging (with white hairs) down is near side hind leg. I managed to track down the breeder and apparently he was born with these.

    Does anyone know where these spots would come from?? (in summer he looks like an appaloosa)
     
  3. Tintara

    Tintara Well-known Member

    I think they call them 'Bend D'Or' spots or something. Quite common in certain lines of Tbs (obviously those tracing back to Bend D'Or;) ).
     
  4. chrome

    chrome New Member

    The article in the paint magazine was total rubbish, Either the author hadnt a clue, or someone somewhere has been sucked in bigtime. He is a lovely type of horse. However, to keep talking about a rare mutation is poppycock. he is a plain old overo TB..and of course olws positive. To not mention that in his advertising, and to not mention the entire concept of responsible breeding is very disturbing to see. What a shame , and how irresponsible. What is more disturbing is that now the warmbloods,arabs and all the associations that allow TB to refine their blood will have to be aware of this remarquable genetic mutation !!
     
  5. winningcolours

    winningcolours New Member

    Hi Chrome. I am sorry that you feel that the only frame-overo thoroughbred in the Southern Hemisphere is just a plain old overo tb. It is a very rare gene in the thoroughbred breed and for you to state otherwise is simply not true. On all Profile In Style’s advertising we have his genetic colour code which states Ee o/n Aa. The o/n is the code for one overo gene or one copy of the olws gene.
    There seems confusion and a taboo with many about LWO – mainly due to lack of knowledge. I would like to point out:-
    1.You need never breed a lethal foal ever and can breed with frame overos every single time. 2. Every single true overo horse ever born in the history of horses carries the OLWS gene.
    Profile is a true overo so he has one copy of the overo gene. This is the same gene as the LWO or OLWS gene or ‘lethal’. A lethal foal has TWO copies of the overo gene, which can only be got by both parents having the overo gene. Breeding a frame overo to a sabino, tobiano, solid, palomino, cremello etc, or any combination of these, there is 100% NO chance of having a lethal foal. The resulting foal can only ever have no copies of the gene; or one copy of the gene - in which case it will have the highly sort after and prized overo gene and have the beautiful coat pattern we all desire. We will be educating all outside mare owners of this so you need not get ‘disturbed’. Further to this, we will not stand him to Tobiano mares so there can be no masking of the overo gene, nor spread without knowledge. We are responsible colour breeders and it is a shame you have judged Winning Colours Farm as irresponsible. And therefore you must see the Colorworld Ranch USA , True Colors Farms Canada and FalconHorse Stud in Europe (which also breed coloured Warmbloods and Arabians) who all breed colour very responsibly and have done so for years, irresponsible also.
     
  6. nannygoat

    nannygoat Gold Member

    Just reading the Horse Deals with my toast, and I see an ad for coloured TB's in New Zealand with a beaut wee coloured TB colt for sale, huge white face and legs.

    Dont know all the ins and outs of this coloured breeding but I personally think they sure are purty!!!
     
  7. Shiobhan

    Shiobhan Well-known Member

    Welcome Winningcolours! I hope you stick around, sorry you have had to come in to defend the coloured tb's though. I have been admiring your stallion and am seriously contemplating sending a mare next season. Just have to find the right one to buy over east first lol

    Nannygoat I saw them too, have horsedeals in front of me actually lol.
     
  8. Westausgrl

    Westausgrl Well-known Member

    Thank you for that Tintara, I will do some research now that I have an idea of what to look for.

    Hi Winningcolours, I was reading you comment and you got me curious, Only asking this as I have a tobiano mare. Why wouldnt you put your stallion over a Tobiano Mare?? My mare is tobiano and has been LWO tested (negative). I am just curious thats all..
     
  9. Kintara

    Kintara Well-known Member

    I think the coloured TB's are cool! But personally I wouldn't want to breed LWO, I'd prefer the safer tobianos etc..! But obviously the frames are popular with other folks!

    As for breeding a frame overo to a tobinao, frame can 'hide' in minimal form in solids and sabinos too. So I'd just think a LWO test from mares with paint/QH breeding would be the easiest option. At you've said Westausgrl, a tobiano with negative LWO is just as safe as breding to a solid with negative LWO!
    Cheers

    Danni
     
  10. winningcolours

    winningcolours New Member

    Hi again all. We will breed solid colored, Sabino and Rabicano mares but not tobianos as that washes the lines out and you never know if the frame is there. You also do not know it when a frame looks solid but if a frame is involved you may test but with a horse tobiano looking they may just forget. We feel this is responsible colour breeding. Please excuse delayed reply - breeding season and VERY busy!
     
  11. Westausgrl

    Westausgrl Well-known Member

    Yes Tintara that is what I have been lead to beleive also.

    I was also lead to beleive you have more chance of LWO when breeding to Sabino's than tobiano's, But I will continue to breed with my tobiano mare as I feel she is just as safe as any other coloured.
     
  12. winningcolours

    winningcolours New Member

    Hi Wesausgirl, Kintara and Tintara. Great that you aired your points of view. Please don't feel that as we imported Profile In Style that we are not approachable. Our reasoning for not breeding Tobiano has come about after discussions with the rest of the world, and as stated in my last post. It has nothing to do with the safety of that particular mating. I would like to know why an 'overo' is called OLWS and LWO all the time? It does not have overo lethal white syndrome and is not a lethal white overo which the initials stand for. Overo does have one copy of the overo gene and if two copies of the gene where present then the horse would have OLWS and be a LWO. The genetic code is O/n - not OLWS/n or LWO/n!!! The poor overo does get a bad wrap in this country. As you know heterozygous form overo is not defective (lethal) and never can be. Here's an analogy for you. There is nothing defective about us humans unless our genetic pool is too closely bred (eg incest) which will lead to defective and lethal humans. But this doesn’t mean the human race is defective. We can reproduce with 99.9% of the population very happily and heathily. Same as overo can breed with 99.9% of equines happily and healthily. Overo is not lethal or defective unless the gene is bred together - which is exactly the same case for humans with the same genes reproducing together. It is a shame overo has such a bad wrap when we have this knowldege and easy quick and cheap testing. Us humans should have just as bad a wrap then I feel. A crazy analogy I know, but I hope I got my point across!

    Each to their own with what colour gene they like best. I personally prefer the coat patterns of the overo. I am not a fan of the maximally expressed tobiano with a white body and black/brown head and flank. Plus tobiano is not in the TB. But again, each to their own and horses for courses. It would be a boring world if we all liked and wanted the same thing.
     
  13. belambi

    belambi Active Member

    Interesting discussion!!

    In my humble opinion there are two sides to every story..

    Firstly , Congrats to the new stallion owners.

    I have just read the article, and was interested by Chomes observation about mutated genes etc. It must be pointed out that the article is written by a lady who is also a breeder, who also happens to have an olws positive stallion too..and a really good allrounder, dabbling in everything, clocking up the miles and winning heaps of awards etc. There are many who say this isnt the way to go..however, there is most certainly a market for horses who are jack of all trades!.and the breeder would have plenty of experience on the subject of OLWS and so is talking from her experiences.( aswell as being a top allround horsewoman)

    In relation to the TB.. Personally I feel that the need to advise and educate on the lethal side of things is a responsibility of both the mare and stallion owner. yes, he is a TB, and yes he is an overo, and yes he is lethal white pos, which STATISTICALLY will be passed on 50% of the time when bred to neg mares.IF people are educated then they can only blame themselves for problems that occur.

    In relation to the other associations.. well, the AQHA is obviously out of the question.. (he would be the only TB stallion in Aus NOT allowed to be outcrossed to an AQHA mare under the current rules).. The other associations will have to decide as to whether they will allow the risk or not.

    The biggest issue with overo is that when it occurs in a solid form, people tend to forget its there. That was the case in 3 of the 7 O/O postmortems I attended last year.and people were horrified, and all came up with the statement.."if only I had known it was possible, then I would have tested."

    responsibility and education are the key to using / breeding overos..and I am sure that such an interesting stallon would not have been imported without a lot of thought and selfeducation on the subject.
     
  14. nannygoat

    nannygoat Gold Member

    What exactly is the lethal foal? (apart that is dies!)
    Is it aborted early or just stillborn?
    Does the mare suffer any setbacks?
     
  15. kiraSpark

    kiraSpark Gold Member

    Nannygoat, I am pretty sure the foal is born alive, but dies soon after as he cant poo properly.
     
  16. chrome

    chrome New Member

    belambi
    Whilst I am aware that you are very experienced on the subject,I must say that I feel you both have your cake and eat it too!
    You ride at least two OLWS pos horses/stallions, who,despite the fact that you are competing them at a very high level,are still exactly that,OLWS pos. I have seen you WIN supreme open ridden horse of Australia on a frame overo..and the list goes on. I am very familiar with your work on the suject of lethal white foals,however I find it to be very 'twofaced'. There is no way to justify breeding olws pos horses. And there is no way to justify any studbook opening up and allowing them in,UNLESS THEY WERE NOT INFORMED IN THE FIRST PLACE, as has happened very recently in Australia ;)
     
  17. Clever Jev

    Clever Jev New Member

    [​IMG]

    She's a 3/4 sister to Might & Power
    Sold at the MM sales on the Gold Coast earlier in the year
     
  18. belambi

    belambi Active Member

    Errrm... How do I answer that Chrome?
    Yes..I ride overos. I am paid a lot of money to ride overos. And yes I have had more success in open company than most people in the world with them. I am a professional rider and that is my job.
    yes , a number of magazines and labs use my photos etc.
    However, Please do not try to put words in my mouth. It has nothing to do with the practice of breeding them.

    ps The above picture is not an overo..but a sabino. OLWS neg
     
  19. nannygoat

    nannygoat Gold Member

    What a great looking unusual TB.

    Hope it can run like the blazes!
     
  20. belambi

    belambi Active Member

    yep..Lovely isnt it!.For 146 thousand It had better run well!! There are a couple of max whites with this great Zabeel breeding around.
     

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