Classical Dressage Bit Question

Discussion in 'Training Horses' started by Northern Peregrine, Mar 11, 2010.

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  1. Northern Peregrine

    Northern Peregrine Well-known Member

    Just as well that I said, in my original post, that I didn't want to start a PK debate...slim hope that was. Might have to go back to "Normal" Dressage, if this keeps up :)
  2. Cornflower

    Cornflower Well-known Member

    You've hit the nail on the head. And therein lies the whole problem!

    And which is why i am another on the list that will not go to modern dressage comps. I don't want to see it, because i don't agree with it.
    I sit there shaking my head as one person after another comes in sawing at their horse's mouth every single stride, and then spurring them on when they don't want to go forward.

    Modern dressage training ends up with different movement than classical training. The reason is how the horse is ridden, and how much is done at the front end. All these horses throwing their front legs about, and over-expressive movements is a by-product of being too focused on the front end.
    But this is what the judges reward.
    A classically trained horse won't have over-expressive movements, and it won't be as 'round' as the modern horses. It would also be built (different muscle development) differently.

    And until judges reverse (because IMO they have it a bit back to front at the moment) their marking, nothings going to change. But for that to happen, there needs to be quite a revolution, since they would need to be encouraged to change their point of view about how a horse should be ridden.

    And i need to say that i am expressing my own personal opinions as i see things.

    And it's great to see people who are open to other ways of doing things.
  3. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Cornflower, sawing at mouths and spurring them on is not modern dressage. As for having different movement, I think you will find this has more to do with the breeds of the horses used than the methods used. Judging comments - well, this has all been done before... :}
  4. myst

    myst Active Member


    Cornflower, sawing at mouths is the rider problem not the judging. Perhaps if riders really worked at the correct training they would get better marks. Don't blame the judges for bad riding. I will give low marks to a horse behind the vertical, it's a bad evasion of the contact. Most judges would do the same, we look for harmony not a rider sawing and booting a horse. 90% of horse problems are the rider.
  5. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

  6. Babe

    Babe Well-known Member

    Some horses also go BTV very very easily...even with minimal hand.

    I dont see modern dressage as seesawing with the hands and spurring on...arent we all trying to achieve the same thing? A light obedient horse? Just some of us want to compete and some dont;)
  7. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    Since we are on the topic of answering questions, I'm still waiting on an answer about how a KK bit (and we are talking real deal not the fakes) cause a chain action across the tongue...:confused:

    I am all for correctness in a horses training, and I certainly like to look and jump outside the square, I have been getting lessons with a biomechanics coach who is all about using your body correctly and getting the horse to travel correctly with minimal hand use. Pretty straightforward really. And yes I hope to transfer this training into dressage comps in the near future.

    Quoted directly from Phillipe Karls website:

    How are you going to do a Teachers course that's not even offered in this country? I'm confused.

    Also just looking at PK's riding pics, I wouldn't think he would look out of place AT ALL in a dressage comp, if your hands are THAT high that you think it will be marked down on, they are far too high LOL *#)
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2010
  8. Blue Poles

    Blue Poles New Member

    For those interested there are 4 European Classical Schools of Training, each with their own training methods working toward the same goals.

    1. The Spainish Riding School of Vienna
      • The Cadre Noir of the French National Riding School in Samur
          1. The Royal Andulusian School of Equestrian Art in Jerez, Spain
              1. Lisbon's Portugese School of Equestrian Art

              The oldest riding school in the world is the Spainish Riding School in Vienna which is over 400 years old. Their classical training method is different to the French, Portugese and Spainish.

              Modern (Competition) dressage trainers tend to follow a variety of methods taken from the four classical schools.

              Dressage, like all sports have trainers that use alternative methods such as Rollkur.

              Spikes under the nosebands of classically trained Andalusions to make them round up is no worse then Rollkur.

              Just keep an open mind, not all methods will work for all horses and remember flexibility is the key to succcessful training.
  9. myst

    myst Active Member


    Judges already do this, but horses must be on the bit, not with their noses in the air and a hollow back and tight neck. Your photo shows a tight neck and the second one the horses mouth is open. In the second photo the rider should have her elbows to the side, she is leaning forward and pulling on the mouth, this is classical?????/
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  10. Babe

    Babe Well-known Member

    Thank you Myst...I didnt want to comment on those pics...exactly my thoughts too
  11. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    further to my last post

    Straight from CDA website.

    Again I don't understand how you can commence training to do the Teachers Course if it is not even offered in Australia, and you are not going overseas to do it.

    Have you actually been accepted into this course? Because if you have, I'm sure lots of people would be interested if it was available here...

  12. BitBankAustralia

    BitBankAustralia Well-known Member

    B&T- I think that rather than "the action of a chain" CDA is speaking of how the KK or any french/ lozenge type bits lays in the mouth. It has an even, consistent contact across the tongue and bars, whereas a single jointed bit will lift off the tongue and focus the pressure on the bars and lips(and perhaps the palate in a low palated horse). You can try this for yourself by laying a KK and a single jointed bit across you arm. I do not think she was in anyway suggesting that the KK would be severe "like a chain" just describing the different way it lies in the mouth.

    I did receive an email from Pip Easton last year about PK's teacher's course, and I do believe it was to be held here in OZ (though I think from memory over east).

    I attended PK's demo evening last year and found it a breathe of fresh air- I am a firm believer in keeping an open mind, learning from those more experienced than you and adapting to suit your needs. I also think- each to their own and there is no need to be as defensive as some of the posts have been! Aren't we all supposed to be in it for the fun and love of our horses after all?:D
  13. kathera

    kathera Active Member

    Lol parelli-itis comes to mind :)
    just jokes all interesting comments and interrogations. Debate opens minds and let's us learn

    I do think tho that many play the seven games but don't nec want to ride Bridleless and bareback. This could be similar in ways
  14. mystere

    mystere New Member

    The PK training course is offered in Perth this year, apps close june or july I think. Applicants have not yet been selected for the course though.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  15. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

  16. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    Yeah I admit it, I'm racist - I just can't stand cowboy hats and moustaches!! :D
    Joking, obviously.
    I think it's great that there are lots of schools of thought out there regarding dressage, but I don't see why such discussions always seem to involve rubbishing everyone else's methods to promote your own.
    Great riding and a happy, well-trained horse will always be a pleasure to watch.
  17. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    agree TB4me :) I'm open to other's ideas/techniques but dont like it when its 'follow me blindly/blinkered or dont follow me at all'
  18. valdez

    valdez Well-known Member

    Well said.....
  19. Talkingshell

    Talkingshell Well-known Member about 4-5 weeks I will be having my lesson with Classical coach who follows the classical line (French/Spanish) of horse riding in lightness and self carriage rather than the hold & push method that is employed in some parts of the world she said.

    The bit I will be riding is FM bit, Cullen is happy in it (not changing it). The next bit he will be upgrade to Sprenger KK bit.

    So it will be interesting to see what 'Classical' is all about :)
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  20. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    let us know how you go Shell :)
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