Claireb - photos of hooves to critique

Discussion in 'Horse Management' started by Shenalar, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. Anna E, your training may be different to Claireb but I think it is very arrogant of people to totally disregard the years both of you have spent learning and training to get to where you are now....
  2. Shenalar

    Shenalar Well-known Member

    lol very wise too I think :)
    I'm keeping quiet too - I don't think there is much more to say than I already have - apart from to afirm that I am totally prepared to put shoes on him if he needs it - which is why I posted the photos........ I have decided that he definitely requires some more investigation at least.

    I will also say again that it was at the beginning of the last lesson that the instructor commented that he was 'slightly short stepping' - I immediately stopped the lesson so we could check him out, but the instructor made clear that he was most definitely not lame........ just a little short stepping....... she didn't say whether he was still doing it at the end of the lesson, so I don't think he was (I'm sure she would have said)

    Not sure what else I have missed answering.

    RR - you scare me too *#)

    I just also want to say that I have been a little distracted since posting this thread for personal reasons, and just so no-one makes assumptions abut why I have been quiet...... sometimes worse things happen than a horse slightly short stepping in a lesson.

    I had a new little great nephew born that same day that I posted the pics - he is not doing so well and is currently on life support in PMH...... things are not looking good - so please don't judge my lack of answers etc in this thread on 'ignorance' or 'burying my head in the sand'
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  3. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Oh Shenalar, sorry to hear about your great nephew. I hope he improves quickly!

    Actually swampcreatures, I don't think anybody has been disrespectful. Everybody has a right to their own opinion and reading both sides of an argument is good to help form opinions. There are only a couple of people who have become defensive. I don't think your last post is justified. Perhaps some posters feel as though they are banging their heads, but I have enjoyed reading all informative posts :)

    I had a giggle at AnnaE's last post :D and just wanted to add that I am glad you (AnnaE) did join in ;) I am sure you have much experience and, even if I don't always agree, it is good to hear different perspectives.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  4. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    My apologies swampcreature ;) (I'm typing on my phone and so it is too difficult to check names/spellings - it also makes for very slow typing lol).
  5. Sorry SMR, didn't mean to be picky - that is why I deleted the post, it was rude. Thanks for being magnanimous about it.
  6. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    If the person who is doing a bad trim is then putting on shoes, you are not going to fix the problem :) I am also not surprised, you wedge because of the pedal bone alignment so if you take this away and put on normal shoes the pedal bone is out of alignment again! If the trim was bad then there is going to be nothing corrective about the process because the whole thing was bad ;)
  7. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Good old Gene, the seller of the 4 point trim....holder of one of the many hoof balance theories :p Should say as well that master farrier is a "club" not a qualification ;)

    LOL extended trot requires shift of balance to the high quarters as if you are writing off piaffe and passage this is not a good example by your categories either ;) Personally you are very good to see the speed of the foot falls in extended trot ;)
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  8. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Trust me if you want to find evidence a horse lands on the lateral part of the hoof and you search and will find it...doesnt mean it is right :)

    I have a job for you swampcreature....tonight while your horses foot is on the ground, I want you to bend the toe upwards...this will prove once and for all that a horse is built to land on its heels *#)
  9. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Shenalar, so sorry to hear about the baby....I hope for speedy recovery :)

    So am I :)) I actually really enjoy debating.....without good debates and discussion the world stops spinning ;)
  10. I can't agree more with the above!
    You are right, retro!**)
  11. Trojane

    Trojane Well-known Member

    While I say there is still right and wrong. I agree with you Gaia - comfort is the aim. :)
    And achieving comfort fast, in my opinion, is better than slowly.

    I am happy to see opinions and treatments debated. Why bother to use a forum otherwise?
    There is no need for anyone to be shy or to assume hostility on the part of others.
    Sure it feels better when someone agrees with you rather than disagrees, but that is human!

    As for the toe-heel-flat debate. I could not answer this but favour retroremedy's word over Gene,
    just because RR is usually right, has a rational approach, and RR isn't selling me anything.*#)

    Thanks for putting up pics Shenalar. I hope your little nephew is much better today :)
  12. I hope your little nephew is ok shenalar :( :(
  13. odway

    odway Guest

    Interesting debate **). Just to clear up the hoof fall sequence, ungulates typically land heel first. In respect to horses, a heel-first foot fall sequence has been well documented before and appears to be considered the norm, although (as with everything!) variation exists. If anyone would like copies of these references please PM.

    Hjertbn G, Drevem S., 1994. Semi-Quantitative Analysis of the Hoof-Strike in the Horse. Journal of Biomechanics, Vol. 21. No. 8, pp. 997-1004.

    Heel M. C. V., Barneveld A., Van Weeren P. A., Back W., 2004. Dynamic pressure measurements for the detailed study of hoof balance: the effect of trimming. Equine Veterinary Journal Vol, 36, No. 8, pp 778?782.

    O'Grady S. E., 2008. Basic Farriery for the Performance Horse. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Equine Practice, Vol. 24, No. 1, pp 203-218

    Have plenty more examples if needed :)
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Reference #1
    Case study of a single horse ?

    Reference #2
    Interesting how "flat" references are more recent than variation results from 1994 & 1995! ;)
    But variations are not unusual as different conformation and hoof balance = variation of hoof fall hence the variation found ;)

    Reference #3

    O'Grady = just one another of the references ;)

    Nothing conclusive Odway....just more research ;)
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
  15. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    I highly doubt the first was only one horse RR.. there has been a lot of gait analysis on horses using treadmills, touch pads and video.
    Have PMed you Odway.
    RR don't take this the wrong way..
    I'm happy to state my "qualifications" and my "disclaimers" in this debate - vet, interested barefoot horse owner, and avid reader. No personal involvement in any of the research or articles so far quoted. Post graduate training in epidemiology includes a module on critically evaluating research papers and study design. No professional affiliation to or financial interest in any particular method of trimming, shoeing, or booting.
    Since you are so quick to dismiss other references, would you care to post your qualifications/affiliations?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2011
  16. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    Reference #1 does not state any method within its abstract but opening line reads "The initial forelimb loading of a horse trotting at 3.7 ms-1 on a treadmill was studied by use of an instrumented shoe, accelerometers and high-speed cinematography"

    Kind of sounds like one horse to me, maybe if you have the full paper you can tell me the method and methodology ;)

    I am not dismissing anything....doing the same as you LOL, as well as demonstrating empericalism ;) (but I don't debate with my qualifications ;) ) Simply because WHY? When it comes to knowledge about horses I dont think qualifications count! I don't work on that principle, I actually respect what anyone has to say about anything and engage them in discussion if they wish and if they can explain themselves and their stance well...that is what matters (and even if someone can't, I still respect and enjoy the conversation) :)

    You can't win the heel first debate, in fact I can't win the flat debate either because that is science, we only have evidence nothing conclusive at all.....but what we do know is that obviously there is a range of normal as no horse is perfectly conformed and if there was a compromise the flat or slightly heel first would have to be the choice LOL.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
  17. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    i like RR's fancy letters after her name lol :)
  18. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    You mean my PhD (google scholar), MSc(google) and BSc (yahoo)
  19. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    he he he YEP !!!!!!!!!!
  20. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    There are other things BSc can stand for ;)... I shall leave it to others to make up their own minds.
    "Sarcasm is the last refuge of the imaginatively bankrupt." — Cassandra Clare (I think I may have to amend my signature...)

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