Claireb - photos of hooves to critique

Discussion in 'Horse Management' started by Shenalar, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. horsescomefirst

    horsescomefirst Well-known Member

  2. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    Aah but that's a barefoot (sorry - sometimes booted!) horse so it must be propaganda.. ;)
     
  3. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    I use to think Retro was scary too *#) But I can see her points now.

    There are different methods of trimming, and also shoeing. I have seen shod horses land heel first, toe first, and flat. And I have seen the same in unshod horses.

    Some will tell you heel first is correct, others not - different methods and theories support different arguments. So who the hell knows what is right!!! LOL

    I now believe flat is correct, except for in trot where heel first is normal ? But hey I am always happy to hear another way. This is based on more education (from my trimmer), trying a different method of trimming and the results on my own horses.

    I would still rather see a horse land heel first than toe first though. Toe first to me just screams "OUCH"!!
     
  4. Sugar's Mum

    Sugar's Mum Gold Member

    if you look at the structures of the hoof, pasturn and fetlock up through the suspensories you will see that the impact is best transfered to the suspensory ligaments if the horse lands heel first.

    If it lands toe first the coffin bone is driven forward into the hoof capsule shutting down the blood supply, jarring the hoof before it gets a chance to be absorbed by the ligaments.

    If it lands heel first the stretching of the suspensory and the flexing of the joints absorb the shock preventing damage to the interior structures of the hoof.

    I know which foot fall I would prefer.
     
  5. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Sugar's mum, it seems that you like to accept what people tell you when it suits??? As for the scaremongering comment - why do people get so defensive when they hear things that may help them or their horse...because it means work? Money? Time? None of us like to have complications and we can choose to bury our heads in the sand, or investigate further.

    I enjoy reading these threads (except for the narrow minded backlashes) and I think knowledge shines through despite people's job titles.

    No hoof, no horse...and yet so many of us rely solely on our farrier/trimmer to keep our horses sound.
     
  6. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    Agree SMR.
    Is my understanding that heel first is better, but if i can read something that change my mind and outlook, and my horse benefits it, then my time reading this thread is not wasted :)
     
  7. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    This article states flat, or slightly heel first (2nd paragraph middle column). I agree that removing too much toe when the heels are underrun will cause too much pressure on the heels (not just "slightly" heel first, but I would expect a large rocker action).

    ...oh, the article link: http://thehorseshoof.com/LeahBiomech.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  8. Gaia

    Gaia Gold Member

    You obviously don't know RR in the slightest, because if you did you would realise that she NEVER posts without research :)*
    Not saying anyone is right or wrong, but there is research to back up BOTH theories. **)
     
  9. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    No, because the suspension above the hoof deals with this :)
     
  10. The scary part of these forums is the person with the loudest voice is often the one most take notice of regardless of right or wrong. As Anna E & Claireb both have years of formal training and years of on the job experience I value their opinions but do other readers of this site realise their experience? Also, I disagree with RR's theories in regard to heel first landing but have no idea the area of experience/expertise which leads him/her to the belief that a flat landing is optimal.
     
  11. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    If the hoof is balanced Heifer it IS landing flat, or as flat as the conformation above the hoof allows. You find barefoot sites saying "heel first", but at the same time they have some beauties about shod horses such as this....*#)

    "Hooves can?t wear themselves when shod?without a little bit of normal wear, they become deformed and infected with fungus and bacteria"

    Go have a look at youtube of Totilias and watch his foot falls at piaffe and passage, a slow motion version of trot and watch the foot fall flat :)
     
  12. Heifer

    Heifer Gold Member

    or i could just look at my own horse who has been self trimming for years, and whom no farrier has ever found fault with his hooves, and see how he walks, trots, canters? Does surface affect? How about pace? i would rather view horse at liberty than with more variables due to rider etc.
     
  13. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    It is not optimal, it is normal (again dependent on hoof balance and conformation) ;)

    I disagree about loudest voice, people just believe what they want to believe....when it comes to hoof care, that usually changes when they are faced with a reality that the barefoot only ideology if flawed and horse shoes have their place in horse performance and health.
     
  14. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    A flat surface will help you see ;) Walk, trot or canter it doesn't matter!
     
  15. SMR

    SMR Well-known Member

    Swampcreatures, the scarey thing about forums is that information can be taken as gospel from people. I don't listen to people because of their name or letters after their name; I listen to those who can back up what they say. Likewise, I don't listen to a vet if their opinion does not make sense; I find a vet who backs up their knowledge and is willing to learn ;)
     
  16. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    Unsound is a strong word but it could be stepping short from a few "bad" trims, or it could have another muscular issue, or the instructor may have been wrong. The OP has not confirmed if this has been a re-occuring problem or whether it has been noticed by other qualified people. Perhaps a lameness work-up from a vet might help.

    My horse was noticably lame with shoes on to the point that even the uneducated eye or rider would be able to see / feel it, particularly on a circle. I would think that if this horse has caudal heel pain then this would be fairly noticable since it is barefoot.

    The biggest worry I have with bar / wedge shoes is that they can mask a bad trim, i.e. the farrier can be trimming the horse just as badly (therefore never trying to correct the root of the problem) but by putting the bar shoes on the horse appears sound. Obviously this is not all farriers but I know with my horse the wedge shoes "fixed" the lameness but the trimming of the foot wasn't being done any better so after a year when the wedge shoes were replaced with normal shoes the horse was still lame.
     
  17. Bon & Ted

    Bon & Ted Guest

    going to go look at some photos now :p and watch toto also.

    Pretty sure I have never ever seen my rock hard footed pony land heel first - only flat ;)

    And she has a set of hooves to envy - vets etc all take notice of her feet so she must be doing it right ';'
     
  18. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    Or watch the same horse in extended trot and watch him land heel first.. Passage and piaffe are NOT "a slow motion version of trot" they involve a very high degree of collection... And a radical change of balance in the entire horse.
    You could just look at these feet...
    Google Image Result for http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/site-images/articles/shoeing-with-regard-to-equine-welfare/Article-3-Heel-Landing.jpg
    Actually that whole site is good reading.
    Or you could look at new foals and weanlings run...
    ETA:
    Gene Ovnicek, Registered Master Farrier
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2011
  19. The heel first landing is very subtle and often not visible to the naked eye unless slowed down. I have seen very slow motion video footage of a number of horses and been surprised to see the heel first landing as when watching them "in the flesh" it was not visible.
     
  20. Anna E

    Anna E Guest

    BTW tho I am flattered to be quoted in the same sentence as ClaireB I do think she should be excluded from being associated with me in this argument as she has very wisely kept her counsel... **)
     

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