Celery Seeds

Discussion in 'Feeding Horses' started by Faxie, Nov 16, 2008.

  1. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    Beagle - why do you think that viruses like Ebola and HIV are caused by human ignorance?
    The spread of HIV arguably was caused by ignorance, discrimination and a very conservative mindset, but I'm assuming that's not what you meant...
    Also, going back to the time of 'natural' medicines only might not be that great - have you heard what the treatment for syphilis was?? I think I'd rather take my chances with antibiotics...
    You're right, overprescription of antibiotics has caused the current problems with resistant bacteria - but this problem isn't confined to manmade antibiotics, so called 'natural' antibiotics can have the same problems, they just haven't been as widely used/abused as the artificial ones.
     
  2. beagle

    beagle Well-known Member

    TB4ME you're right that I meant that the spread of AIDS was largely due to human ignorance.Humans may not have caused Ebola as such but there are some lovely deadly diseases created specifically for biological warfare.
    Anyway,I really think that with the years of progress in medicine,drugs & treatments of disease that we can have a strong,well educated retrospective look at implementing as much natural therapies into modern medicine as possible.I consider use of antibiotics excessive.How many people have the flu & get prescribed antibiotics when there is no secondary bacterial infection present? Doctors do know that viruses are not treated with antibiotics,but use them anyway because patients feel better about taking a pill.
    Myself - yes would take antibiotics if required but would consider using natural remedies prescribed by qualified naturopaths first.
    So fantastic that we have made so much incredible medical advances but let it not lull us into ignoring nature.
     
  3. Talullah

    Talullah Well-known Member

    I don't think this thread was meant to be a big debate. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I think it is starting to go way off topic.
     
  4. holistichorse

    holistichorse Well-known Member

    I agree with Tallulah
     
  5. wormwatch

    wormwatch Active Member

    I like the debate, especially when it's informed and people back up their opinions. So far it's managed to stay calm and not bother the mods.

    If I have an opinion on something, I think it's important to understand the reasoning of people who hold a different view. Even if I disagree, I like to understand why they think differently. I think it's important to keep an open mind either way. My opinion on several subjects has been changed by informed "debate" and learning more about the reasoning behind different viewpoints. The debate is off-topic, but maybe it can be moved somewhere else and continue, especially since everyone is playing nicely.

    If you don't enjoy people debating the science, that's fine. But it is a discussion forum and even geeks need an outlet. The breeders have a forum, the colour enthusiasts get to talk about their topics. I put my vote for letting it continue whilst everyone is behaving well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  6. Talullah

    Talullah Well-known Member

    The debate seems to have gone off topic now though, thats what I was talking about.
     
  7. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    Not really, it's just broadened from the orginal topic. Why is that a problem?
    Celery seeds are one of those treatments where supporting evidence is mostly anecdotal, one person says it seemed to work well so another person decides to give it a go, which is often the way that alternative therapies seem to gain popularity. Any attempt at publishing clinical data often seems to end up in the Journal of Homeopathy or something similiar, so not exactly unbiased.
    I think that part of the problem is people keep assuming that 'natural' medicines and 'modern' medicines (or 'drugs') are separate. Penicillin is derived from a mould, you can't get much more natural than that, and most antibiotics are derivatives of natural compounds. Yet as Beagle said, antibiotics have been terribly abused and overprescribed.
    There are some natural therapies that have strong evidence behind them and have been shown to work, and others that have no evidence or are even dangerous - why should they all be grouped together?
    It seems wrong to me that people can make money from therapies that have no evidence behind them, but people are encouraged to try them because they are marketed as 'natural'.
    That's why I prefer using therapies that have been tested and have some clinical support, but that DOESN'T exclude so-called natural substances.
    I think the artificial division (often emphasised by those on both sides of the debate)between 'alternative' and 'conventional' medicines helps nobody.
     
  8. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse Active Member

    Homeopathy and faith are inextricably entwined.

    Sven Weum M.D.: "Homeopathy has no scientific basis and is totally dependent on a spiritual understanding of man and diseases. Healing effect of homeopathy is unthinkable without the use of spiritual or psychic power."

    Terry J. Allen: : "Some homeopaths counter that their cures are not amenable to scientific proof. That’s fine, if you want to call the multimillion dollar industry what it is: faith healing."

    Skepchick: "You have to awaken the spirit of the remedy"

    Are Simeon Thoresen DVM: "Hahnemann used to hit the little bottle against a leather bound Bible. This process, regarded as essential by Hahnemann, was called succussion"
     
  9. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse Active Member

    TB4Me: I bet you'll also get the same thing from people telling amazing tales of vitamins curing their cancer/cold/hair loss. It has become part of common knowledge over the last few decades. Many people will have seen "evidence" themselves that it works (or have heard someone say it works).

    Yet, the more it is studied, the less and less evidence there is that there's any effect at all.

    I guess it comes down to the difference between faith* and evidence.



    *And marketing.
     
  10. beagle

    beagle Well-known Member

    wise words worm watch (try saying that after 3 tequilas!!)
    yes let everyone have a say ... I think discussion of this sort is healthy too & likewise with Wormy that my mind can change with the comments.For example,I'll heed retro's advice about the Devil's Claw & White Willow bark,but I have a curious mind so will cnte to dabble/read/investigate/trial new things as I see fit.
    Well done to all for being sensible adults in this discussion.I may be new to forums,but from what I've read in the past they can degenerate & I'd hate to be part of that.
    Thanks to all who tolerate my gabble.
     
  11. Mod 3

    Mod 3 Moderator

    Don't worry Wormwatch ,mods are watching it closely but so far you've managed to moderate yourselves.We don't mind a good debate but we don't like it when it gets personal and turns into a slinging match between members.
    Carry on :)
     
  12. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    Hey SomeoneElse,
    Do you reckon 'not amenable to scientific proof' is the same/similiar as the placebo effect?
    Not saying homeopathy/faith healing is useless - after all, if you believe in it, then maybe thats why it seems to work...
     
  13. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    I think in terms of philsopy it probably means they stand side from a postivist or post positivist view point! ;)
     
  14. TB4Me

    TB4Me Well-known Member

    Ahaha. Nerd.
    :)
     
  15. retroremedy

    retroremedy Well-known Member

    hahaha well how about I denouce them as a "interpretist" and kick them out of any type of scientific paradigm ;)
     
  16. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse Active Member

    The homeopath's fear of science often sees them arguing that, because each homeopathic consultation is individual, with tinctures being prescribed relating to the client's own circumstances, that it can't be tested scientifically. They argue that the same symptoms often require different tinctures*.

    Of course, it would still be easy to do the consultation, and then randomly blind half the tinctures with placebos (but how do you distinguish between a homepathic remedy - which has no active ingredient in it - with a placebo - which also has no active ingredient in it!).


    *Which means that all those homepathic remedies being sold by chemists (including flower essences, rescue remedy and so on) are completely useless by (the homeopath's) definition.
     
  17. Faxie

    Faxie Well-known Member

    :)* hmmm i forgot about this thread!! seems to have taken a bit of a turn LOL!! Must admit it makes for interesting reading, thanks all!

    All i really wanted to know was had anyone specifically put their horses on CS and noticed some degree of improvement. Thanks to those who have responded the like ;)
     
  18. Trojane

    Trojane Well-known Member

    Hi Faxie. It may have "taken a bit of a turn" but your question opens up the fascinating question of how do we tell if there is a connection between a treatment and an improvement. :)
    And if there ever was an improvement...
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  19. wormwatch

    wormwatch Active Member

    LOL - maybe you can be the first to sign up to the inaugural Stockyard forum double-blind trial where Someone Else send you some seeds to feed your horse, you nominate if there is any difference after feeding and then after you get to find out whether the seeds were celery or Something Else.
     
  20. Trojane

    Trojane Well-known Member

    Haha. Great plan wormwatch. I love it!!:))
     

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