Black liver chestnut?

Discussion in 'Colour Questions' started by Late Starter, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. Late Starter

    Late Starter Well-known Member

    I've heard and seen liver chestnut horses where it's a deep/dark chestnut colour. What or how can a horse be a BLACK liver chestnut; I'm confused as black and chestnut are different colours.
  2. Remaani

    Remaani Guest

    I have a filly thats classed as a black liver chestnut. However she's also greying out. ;)
    Her mane is still ever soo dark, it doesnt look chestnut, nor black but looks kinda purple depending on the light.
    Her chestnut patches (she's pinto) just dont look chestnut coloured at all.....
  3. Late Starter

    Late Starter Well-known Member

    This particular horse that has been described as a black liver chestnut is an 11 yrs old Arabian derivative so would it stay that colour as it is older?

    Do they actually look more black than chestnut?
  4. Horsetalk

    Horsetalk Well-known Member

    I'm not an expert on colours, so please forgive me lol. :p
    A true liver chestnut has to have black genes and looks more on the black side than just a darker chestnut lol. :) Do you have a photo of the horse in question?
  5. Remaani

    Remaani Guest

    Here is the pics of my filly, but please remember she is greying out. ;)







    And NO, she's not brown or bay. ;-)

    WITCHERY Well-known Member

    rem was she classed this at birth or have you come to the conclusion because she is greying out.

    IT's a shame they grey out!

    I am putting my mare who is a chestnut (Fanta colour) to a stallion who is a Liver chesnut I donno if you would call him a black liver chestnut but he is pretty dark close to being a black/brown however when you look at him close you can see he is a chestnut.

    I am hoping for a solid chestnut the same colour as rem foal pictures which would be about the mid colour between stallion and mare. However I am not that lucky so I will most likely get another fanta pants (I'll get a chestnut no matter what)
  7. Teal

    Teal Well-known Member

    is this something that is for sale on the other site?

    If so I was confused about that as well as I had never heard of the colour, and she looks more like black to me!
  8. equus

    equus Well-known Member

    The black is misleading really. A black liver chestnut or black chestnut is just an extremely dark chestnut not black at all. They can usually be told apart from blacks and bays by the lighter reddish tinted fetlocks or so I've read
  9. samm

    samm Gold Member

    Black liver chestnut is just a term to describe a very dark coloured chestnut.
    On first glance the horse looks black but isnt.If you google a horse called "Cherokee Mecca" or "Cherox Iqtamma" ,they are both good examples of a black chestnut.
  10. Tintara

    Tintara Well-known Member

    As Equus says, it is more of a generic term used to refer to those very very dark chestnuts that appear to be black in colour but which genetically are red based. It MAY be that many of these horses do not carry agouti hence their dark almost black colouring; I believe there have been tests done along these lines which seems to indicate this to be the case and I did read about it in a thread on another forum some time back but it isn't something I've gone into in any depth.

    It is a very attractive colour though.
  11. Sassy

    Sassy Gold Member

    I always considered Kejome Kamil to be a true "Black Liver" - his coat was so dark it looked pitch black, but his mane was bright red - he was stunning! when I think of a "Black Liver" I think of his colour...
  12. Kintara

    Kintara Well-known Member

    I've heard it said, and horses I've seen support it, that the non fading dark liver chestnuts often come from the lines that have the really black non fading blacks? The agouti discussion I seem to remember coming up on equine colour and a couple of liver chestnuts were posted that had agouti? So not sure about that one.

    Remaani, even a normal chestnut can go an almost black colour in the process of greying. Just something weird that grey seems to do?


  13. Remaani

    Remaani Guest

    Never seen one go black yet, seen them go a pink colour. ;)
    However, even though her body colour is greying, you can see the red tinge more now, doesnt help that she's slightly sunbleached. But her mane has not gone black (with the greying out process), its always been that dark colour & it doesnt look chestnut, even up close & personal as the pics dont show it well.
    If anything, the coat colour is getting more greys throughout, but not changing to black? :confused:
  14. Late Starter

    Late Starter Well-known Member

    Thanks, that's interesting. Yes it is a horse on the other site that I'm hoping to check out if I can get hold of the owner.
  15. Kintara

    Kintara Well-known Member

    Well I mean not so much the horse turns black, but the red hairs go black before they go grey if that makes sense? So a red chestnut with grey hairs coming in often goes through a stage where it looks like a black going grey instead of chestnut going grey. Or even just like a dark chestnut going grey. Same way a palomino going grey often looks like a buckskin for a while.

    The grey paper recently out said something about it too, I'll see if I can find.

    This is it with someone putting it in more laymans terms.....

    "The researchers theorize that the 4.6 kb duplication is a mutation affecting regulation of NR4A3 and STX17, causing up-regulation of the genes. NR4A3 targets two separate genes--CCND1 and CCND2, so they looked at expression of these two genes to see if the up-regulation of NR4A3 was also up-regulating one or both of these genes. They found that CCND2, but not CCND1, was highly expressed in horse melanoma tissue. Their theory is that the increased expression of NR4A3 and STX17 cause the gray phenotype by promoting melanocyte proliferation, and higher proliferation of hair-follicle melanocytes causes a premature depletion of stem cells that are available for pigmentation. When the horse uses up all its stem cells too early in life, the hair begins to go gray. Basically, it uses up all its melanocytes too early. Likewise, there are other melanocytes in the skin, and a proliferation of these cells could cause melanomas."

    So the hyperproliferation of melanocytes early in life, before the horse runs out of stem cells and begins to gray, could explain why young gray horses show a darkening of coat color before they begin graying.

  16. LilacsGirl

    LilacsGirl New Member

    Black Liver Chestnut connected brown gene (At) ???

    A black liver chestnut is distinct from what is often called a liver chestnut (really just very dark brown) because it has a purple/burgundy hue. It comes in really BLACK in new summer coat, and then seems to oxidize a little, from exposure to the sun, and produce a sort of dark red tip to the individual hairs. By the end of the summer, as winter coat comes in, the purply effect is quite noticeable.

    My Ruby's tail looks exactly like the tail of a black horse that has reddened toward the end of summer. I'm speculating that it's to do with the presence of the brown gene - even possibly homozygous brown gene - (At) in combination with ee (chestnut). I am doing brown gene tests on 5 horses to determine a pattern here. A normal lab would return a result of AA - but this gene could actually be At At. Only one lab I know of tests for Brown.
  17. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-known Member

    Yes Kejome Kamil was a lovely liver chestnut.

    I have his only entire pure bred son, he doesn't have that some colour but is of impressive colour all the same :)

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  18. KC Quarter Horses

    KC Quarter Horses Gold Member

    Interesting stallion is a very dark chestnut. Many a person has called him liver chestnut but he isn't as he has a very red base and livers are more brown.
    A while back someone called him a purple liver ( a term I have not ever heard of until then). I mentioned that to my farrier and he said, hadn't heard of the term either but its a perfect discription of him.
    What I think he is ....a very dark chestnut with the smutt gene which makes him look black at certain times of the year.
    His tail and mane always remain a purple colour but his body will change from looking dark chestnut to looking nearly black.
    So my guess.....and its only a that his black is the presence of the smutt gene.
    Another courious thing though is he has never bred a chestnut to a bay or brown horse and although he has not an ounce of white on him, he throws chrome :)
    So for all you colour genetic guru's..... has he got some resessive gene in him that throws to the mare with colour ?
    although saying that I have bred 2 chestnuts from him....both to the same chestnut was a deep red chestnut with a much lighter ( nearly flaxen) mane and tail ....he had a real irridesance about him and the other was just the average coloured chestnut :)
  19. megz86

    megz86 Well-known Member

    I never knew there were so many shades of chestnut til i got my girl. She's a liver chestnut, people always mistake her for black which spins me out, i'd call her brown if anything.

    This link shows a great example of a black chestnut, 3rd pic down on the left
    Equine Color Genetics
  20. Dontey464554

    Dontey464554 Active Member

    Their is a quarter horse stallion in the eastern states, Tribulation i think his name is, they call him a chocolate chestnut

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