And the plot thickens (Cody)

Discussion in 'Problem Horses' started by Rayes, Jan 10, 2010.

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  1. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    A horse should walk and lift "true"....when they don't, and it is visual there is a problem. It could be body or it could be toxin.

    I have never heard of an experienced vet who would sight a horse having walking difficulty and not think that was totally unusual.....lolol And considering horses are known to walk freely and cover ground with each step, durr, but not doing so means something is wrong! Whether that be temporary or more sinister.
    Smash get another vet............

    Rayes, glad you visited the sales. All I can say is you must have more time and more money than you think you do......lolol

    To sell this horse privately is IMO wrong. He has confusing health issues and educational limits. Just who is he going to suit?
    Did you advertise him? Make it known you are selling the horse?
    So what are you telling/showing people? Or going to show and tell?

    I suspect every horse person you know and those your mother knows have already heard about this horse, his vet visits, his trainer visits.....
    With this in mind, what kind of home do you think he would get after you?
    Any better than what is offered at the sale yard?
    You might get more money back from a private sale rather than from a sale yard.

    I consider it a huge responsibility to sell a horse AND give that horse the best possible home and workplace- inline with his usefullness and talent.

    There are reasons why those horses go the the sales. Some reasons have nothing to do with the horse, and some reasons have everything to do with the horse!

    I can't see what you are learning from an uneducated and suspect horse, and I can't see where your responsibility is.......but I am dumb.
  2. megan

    megan Well-known Member

    around around the merry go bush we go.

    shakes head
  3. Double Helix

    Double Helix Well-known Member

    There is an excellent article here about Girthiness: Girth Problem.pdf

    I vaguely recall (although it was many pages ago now in a different thread even :) ) that one of the initial problems you had with this horse was he seemed "sensitive" to legs on his side (didn't this instigate the original bucking episode) and when you touched him on the side from the ground he also reacted??? I think at one stage you even thought he might have had cracked ribs?

    All of this sounds like it could be related to him displaying girthiness and it really does sound like this horse has some pain issues.
  4. kathera

    kathera Active Member

    No offence Trojane why would there be?

    this whole forum gives us all lots of moments when we read each others comments and sometimes have WTF?? moments, and sometimes lightbulb moments!

    I would agree with your comment as girthyness relating to saddle/girth and always assumed as such

    BUT With current horse i have tried several girths, saddles, stretching, phsio, distraction and punishment with no change in his girthyness, and really think it is a learned behaviour, but knew he suffered some lameness at times.

    Looking closer however, he does commence his protest at site of saddle with ears back and bit out when girth went up, so i suppose it is more than just the girth tightning when he was letting me know.

    Reading that article, it mentions horse anticipation and also owners being more creative in thought process, my horse may be a case more for this.

    ...any way this is Cody's post,
  5. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    maybe i should of just sent the horse to you bindi, then i am sure you could of diagnosed the problem.
  6. Trojane

    Trojane Well-known Member

    Hi Smash, G'day dear friend :) Yes I agree - they sure are speaking and it aint nice!!!!
    Horse soreness is your stuff so I won't presume there!!!!
    But what puzzles me about girthy horses are the many apparently sound ones - who can compete, do endurance, eventing etc and pass vet checks (and not at the vet you mention *#) )
    Yet remain girthy - year in and out.

    You are a very good and generous-hearted person Smash and I admire you.:))

    I can't figure this out from a distance - or closeup either I expect!!!
    It just sounds weird to me.
    Whatever is happening in your case - I put vets top of my list, but not on a pedestal.
    Like any human they have varying abilities, patients may present in unorthodox ways and vet science knows it doesn't know the answer to every problem (consult a natural horse care book for that *#) )

    I can only wish you the very best and hope you crack the problem - is it resolved yet???
  7. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    hi tojane LOL and ditto back at ya.
    i will answer in capitals, so i am not yelling ok buddy LOL
    ))))))))waves to trojan ((((((((((((
    now be good mate LOL :)):)):))
  8. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Smash far from it.....I rely on my vets to do the diagnosis. If I came across a vet who failed to act on something I felt strongly about I would seek further investigations from another vet. As Tro mentioned, the higher the pedastal the greater the distance to fall.......lololol

    In saying that I have valuable animals to protect and have learnt over the years to be both pro-active and practical, and by being both these things I have made judgement calls based on things like, immediate outcome for both horse and us, finances, time, and probable long term prognosis for animal and us.

    I hugely support horse education. But being the ultimate realist I think in this case there are other factors to consider. The first is Rayes ability to pay for the horses ongoing extra medical expenses, the second is her lack of time, the third is the horses lack of education, the fourth is the real possibility of causing injury to her and lastly in referrence to "responsibility" I believe nothing comes before the responsibility to remain safe and healthy for the sake of ones young family.

    Applause for sticking it out is all well and good........lots of people are clapping their hands that Rayes is sticking with this horse, but at what cost?

    I enjoy working in the garden on a warm summer day, but I'm smart enough to know when its best to come indoors.

    While-ever someone is made to feel really good about being a hero, they are less likely to make sensible judgement calls based on their own realities!

    I remember a very good horseman telling me that "The only horse hero's are dead ones, the difference between horse and human is that we can climb down".
  9. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    but EVP who are we to tell someone what they should do with their OWN HORSE ????
    you can give your advice or opinion, but they dont HAVE TO TAKE IT.
    your first opinion of if rayes can handle the ongoing extra medical expense, is her decision, and no one elses (maybe her bank manager of course) LOL
    but it is not upto others to tell HER, SHE CANT AFFORD IT, only rayes can say that.
    now even your second opinion if rayes has time or not, is upto to rayes to work out. many people have young families, work and still find time for their horses, and it is all about juggling things and commitment to MAKE THINGS WORK. at times it is not easy.
    and thirdly, the horses lack of education. every horse starts off somewhere, and fourthly, rayes safety, well once again, she is not 14 and it is upto rayes to beable to judge what is safe for her.

    rayes has done a lot of responsable things, taken the horse to a vet, a chiro, a trainer, this sounds like a very responsible person and not someone who is gun ho about her life.

    she is TRYING HER BEST to do the right thing, what more can you ask of her.
    yes she is going to hit brick walls, just like EVERYBODY ELSE at times.
    she has had to endure a lot of belittling and digs, and has been asked by several to continue sharing her ups and downs, and she has and coped more digs, yet has continually held her head up high, and responded in very maturely through out it all.

    now what rayes gets out of this experience is upto rayes, but many are reading this thread that are in a simular situation (to scared to post due to what rayes has gone through) but are learning from all the different advise from EVERYONE (including you EVP).
    your advice might help joe blow as they read this thread, and joe black may have got some lightbulb moments from sharaway. everybody gets a bit of something from someone, and not Necessarily the person it was intended for.

    i just hope rayes is brave enough to keep on sharing her journey?

  10. Rayes

    Rayes New Member

    I agree!

    EVP - do you think that I am a total novice and/or idiot? Having spent my while life around horses and the majority of it riding them, I do have some idea how to handle them.

    However, this was a new (totally green) horse who obviously has or had a physical problem. I believe that we have almost worked through that (judging by his behaviour and and movement) and now we will start to work on our training. And yes, perhaps I was a novice in this instance as I had not come across this particular situation before...but I am seeking advice (both on the forum and off it) and I am learning. I believe we all learn until the day we die (must be the schoolteacher in me) and without learning, growth cannot occur.

    Of course I have a responsibility to keep myself safe but in fact, horseriding is in itself inherently dangerous and anyone could fall off any horse at any point in time given the circumstances.

    I have ridden this horse a total of 6 times and have experienced bucking twice...that in my opinion means that we are getting somewhere.

    I apologise for my rant to everyone else who has supported me and given me worthy advice, but Smash is right...I am getting tired of being judged and belittled like I am some silly teenager!

  11. Northern Peregrine

    Northern Peregrine Well-known Member

    Please don't bite me everyone but is this horse (a dun called Cody) advertised on The Other Site? If it is, the ad doesn't mention any of these problems, only that he is being sold due to no fault of his own..just that the owner has no time for him. He is also a considerable price..over $5000. As I say don't bite me if I'm TOTALLY wrong..just wondering. I can't remember if the Forum Cody is a dun but I thought he was. *#)
  12. Rayes

    Rayes New Member

    Ah, no, not him.
  13. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Firstly, way back many pages Rayes said she did not have alot of money in regards to ongoing treatment. Not my assumption - her words.

    Secondly, she also mentioned her lack of time (as natural for someone with a young baby). Not my assumption - her words.

    Smash going by the entire content of the thread I gave my opinion just as others have done. The fact that I honestly believe the horse isn't suitable (from reading the posts) obvioulsy flys in the face of those who might put common sense aside in preference to earning brownie points on a horse forum.
    Another example of "I don't like hearing your opinion so I will call you rude".

    As evidenced by Rayes reactions to every post from me.

    Of course should anyone expect different.....lolol A forum where people actually continually advise someone to keep an unsuitable horse for the purpose of entertaining others with the details?

    I don't call that responsible forum membership.

    OK, this is the confusing have been around horses your entire life, have a very experienced horse handler in your mother, yet you ended up with a horse like this?
    Yes people can fall off horses.........ah but many people don't purposely put themselves onto a horse knowing full well it is beyond their current abilities?
    And the people that they have around them most usually tell them the same thing.

    Sorry, but I've seen all this before.......some people like to get their inner natural-horsemanship-rescue-saviour self out when they sit down to read of other people's horse difficulties. Its real easy to hand over cyber back pats and massage egos on a horse forum because they are eaten up with glee. Keep the horse, rehabilitate the beast, re-educate the naughty, breed from the reject.....ra ra ra........However, throw out a few home truths and you get handed the crown of Evil one.

    Rayes I think you should have listened to your mother. If she is as experienced as you say, she'd be giving you all the advise you don't want to hear either.

    Rayes what breed of horse is this? Or is he of unknown parentage?

    Did the previous owners have him for long? Any chance of tracking down other owners if any?

    Or his breeders?
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
  14. Rayes

    Rayes New Member

    Umm...exactly when have I called you rude???

    Are you telling me I'm the only one in the history of the world who ended up with an unsuitable horse??? This horse was perfect when I trialled him and he came on the recommendation of friends who knew the horse, and I in fact knew the owners and had seen this horse ridden previously.

    EVP - I came off this horse the first time I rode him once I got him home. Admittadly it was 3 times, but that was because I kept getting back on.

    Since then I have not come off (including once when he did try to buck)...I can ride the horse, I just would like some more knowledge on the intimate details of schooling a green horse as I have had little experience in this area.

    EVP - your suggestions of euthanasia or sending him to the knackery just don't sit well with me - sorry.

    You have had your say...but I do not agree, so unless you are going to add anything constructive (i.e helpful), I simply don't want to have to hear it (or read it in this case).

    The only reason I have left this thread open is because people want to hear about our progress and I like having people to bounce ideas off as not too many people I know ride (and please don't bring up my mother again!). But quite frankly, I am becoming reluctant to post as I dread what the response will be (not the majority, thankfully).
  15. smash

    smash Well-known Member

    deleted as i really could not be bothered LOL
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
  16. goog

    goog Well-known Member

    Rayes, you said you have ridden your boy a total of six times.

    The first time sounds like he really put it on and bucked you off three times? OUCH!
    Could you give us a bit of a timeline as to what has happened the next couple of times you have ridden, i.e second ride was girthy so had vet out and suggested x. This way we could see more concisely what happens and try to provide some constructive advice.

    Still a hard one and probably gave your confidence a bit of a knock ;)
  17. EVP

    EVP Gold Member

    Swiss cheese with those crackers ladies?

  18. Rayes

    Rayes New Member

    Oh Goog...don't know if I'm up for it tonight.

    I'll start and see if I can finish.

    Cody was fine when I trialled him. He tried two little pigroots, but he hadn't been ridden for a year and I thought that if that was the worst it got, great.

    Horse bucked when I tried to ride him 3 days after I got him (late October).
    Rang previous owner who would not take him back and blamed me.

    Had chiro out 3 times and my mother and I rode him once between these sessions...he did not attempt to buck or do anything naughty. He was lunged and then my mother rode him and then I rode him.

    Took him to two days of a horsemanship clinic, where on the ground he did brilliantly. Trainer suggested not riding him as he thought he was still sore. The trainer noticed that he was dropping his hip, but put it down to him being unschooled and not used to circle work.

    Had same chiro out again...starting feeling as though this particular professional wasn't getting any where with him so got vet out.

    Vet said there was nothing physically wrong with him and he thought the bucking was behavioural. He suggested taking him to another trainer.

    Afterwards a chiro/vet specialist (who was suggested by the first trainer) came out and did work on him. This time I could see he was sore and I could also see where he was receiving treatment and how he was reacting to it.

    I took the horse to the second trainer who assessed him for the type of riding I wanted to do. He never saw me ride the horse. No, he wasn't appropriate, but gave me some ideas on what I could do to work him up to it and suggested the instructor whom I have now commenced lessons with. Time was going to be a big factor according to this trainer. That swung me towards selling the horse.
    This second trainer also noticed that the horse was dropping his hip, but still rode him and afterwards examined him and found that the horse wasn't sore.

    I rode Cody the next day...he tried to buck (twice) at the walk. Both times I stopped him and he didn't try it again for the rest of the roughly 30-minute ride.

    Had a riding lesson on him, he finally started to relax and work with me and instructor commented on what a nice horse he was (oh, and complimented me on my riding incidentally). However, she lunged him before I got on and he humped up a little (he did the same at the second trainers). She concluded that he was girthy.

    I rode him last weekend (lunged him first) and things were fine. A lot to work on, but he did not play up.

    Oh, and have had a third chiro out for the past two weeks to work on his hip and it was almost unnoticeable last week and will find out tomorrow if it has improved further with this week's treatment.

    So, the plan now is to have weekly riding lessons and ride him 1-2 times a week in addition to that.

    Phew, hope that makes sense...I have been told that my saga has inconsistencies...just trying to tell you everything I can (and remember!).

  19. Rayes

    Rayes New Member

    EVP - honestly, either say something helpful or constructive, or go away.

    You obviously have some vendetta against me keeping the horse and working on him. That's fine, so stop posting.

    And you wonder why I wasn't so quick to respond to your private messages...I can feel the knife in my back from here.
  20. goog

    goog Well-known Member

    Thanks Rayes it makes much more sense to me now rather than the bits an pieces people had picked out. What I would do if it was me would be to get him x rayed to have some definition about his lamenesss. If something was found decide costs vs time etc on fixing and make decision. IF nothing found but hey you really love this horse I would recommend getting an really good instructor to help you with lessons, make it quality rather than quantity. Some of the behaviour he is displaying sounds like he may be sore but he could have been mistreated in some way and displaying this behaviour, also if he's not forward enough he may buck when you ride him.

    It also sounds a bit like maybe the seller did the dodgy on you, you may be able to try to get the seller to take horse back, I know you may have an attachment to him but the stress might not be worth it.

    That's just a quick dump of my thoughts, you don't have to do any of it but that's just a suggestion of what I would consider doing without actually meeting the lovely lad.:))

    by the way do you live in WA?
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